Red Dot choices

[Jonnyt16]

I was curious which DI Optical sights you've experienced. Any thoughts good or bad? I was considering a DCL30 for either my AR or AUG.

I am curious as well. Tim with Military Arms Channel speaks very highly of these sights. In fact I believe he keeps a DI Optical sight on one of his go-to rifles. Apparently they are made in South Korea not China.

[andygold]

I am curious as well. Tim with Military Arms Channel speaks very highly of these sights. In fact I believe he keeps a DI Optical sight on one of his go-to rifles. Apparently they are made in South Korea not China.

Be advised, DI has some sights that look almost identical, but one is South Korean mil spec, while the other is the civilian version. One pair would be the DCL30 and the EG1, while the other is the DCL23 and the FC1. DCL series are their military versions.

[Core781]

+1
As RHINOWSO stated, Aimpoint (or Trijicon) for your personal self/home defense rifle and almost any of the other popular brands for range toys.

Vortex Crossfire Micro is solid enough for home defense: it's no longer in the range toy category. I had Eotech fail on me, and two older Aimpoints: like them Vortex is evolving better stronger sights. I have two Aimpoints sitting in pieces in a box because Aimpoint will not warranty them: they are pathetic. But if you want the best go for Trijicon or Vortex HD Razer/UH-1. I don't like Aimpoint warranty or lack thereof and it's not American. I prefer Eotech ring dot holosight, and Eotech stands behind their products also. The truth hurts.

[Mysteryman]

You certainly have the right to feel that way. Hopefully not while typing on a MacBook, iPad or iPhone (all made in China) and wearing sneakers made in China. Got to stick with the program Ralph.

Eliminating Chinese goods from your life is a tough task. I do it where I can, and no I don't wear Chinese footwear, I wear US made Danner(Berry compliant) or European brands like AKU, Lowa, Meindl etc. How often do you seek quality goods made in deomocratic allied nations, or are you like most, and solely driven by having quantities of cheap crap vs limited amounts of quality products?

There is another bigger picture way to look at this, which, for some reason, always gets missed by people with your point of view. Regardless of where it is made, a T1/2 or SF shouldn't cost what it does....period...and the reason it remains this way are caused by the same people.

Why shouldn't they cost what they do? Capitalism is about finding the happy medium between maximum profit and a loss in sales. Aimpoint invented the red dot, perfected it and has been the longest and most widely deployed red dot sight in the world. The rest are simply knock offs trying to imitate them. If Aimpoint wasn't offering quality products their prices would be much lower, but they aren't. Do you expect us to believe that Holosun and Vortex are more advanced AND willing to cut their own margins for the benefit of the consumer? The Chinese brands sell for less because they know they're offering an inferior product. For most all they see is cheaper and they're sold. The lower price isn't to persuade the purveyor cheap crap to buy Holosun or Vortex. The lower price is there to try and persuade the Aimpoint types and departments(yes LE departments) that they can get the same product(or close to) for a lot less money. The reality is you simply can't get the same quality for less. The silly features like "shake awake" are nothing but window dressing disguised as "innovation". More an answer to a question no one asked(well maybe Eotech with their pathetic battery life).

If you don't like the price, don't buy it. But don't pretend like you're getting the same quality for less from a Chinese knock off.

I wasn't trying to start a debate here and don't want to continue one if that's what is happening. I was only trying to respond to the OP question. Both the Aimpoint and Trijicon are great optics but if someone can't afford those there are some other less expensive options (Vortex, Sig, Holosun) ignoring where they are made or where their parts are made. No where on the box does the Sig Romeo say that it was made in China. Instead it says assembled in Oregon, USA. But it had to be made somewhere. Earlier models were made in China. I have read that they are now using parts from Japan, but actually I don't know.

Fifteen years ago I worked for a company that moved one of its' manufacturing plants to China. I wasn't happy about it then and nothing has changed. As for optics, I did buy American. I have three Trijicon products. As for disingenuous, per your own comments, which optics are truly made in America and have no non-American parts?
Not the Aimpoint.

Assembled in Oregon means it is likely comprised of foreign parts, see Chinese.

Everyone can afford an Aimpoint or Trijicon. The problem is people(those in Western nations) have a desire to consume, to buy shit and own more shit that can't be fulfilled. It's about priorities. Rather than "building another AR" why not take a hard look at priorities and decide if a quality optic is more important than building another rifle you really don't need. I bet there isn't hardly a forum member on M4C that doesn't have 2 or more AR's and likely only shoots one of them. I also bet there are very few on M4C that have 2 identical rifles out of redundancy. Likely most have several rifles of varying barrel lengths, styles, etc for no other reason than to have MORE.

The word budget can be broken down into two factors. Time, and quantity. If you saved $10 a week for a year you would have $520 in your "budget" for whatever it was you were saving for. If that isn't enough money you have two choices. Save more per week, or save for more weeks. Time or quantity. The price of a quality optic is not outrageous, it simply requires one to be more disciplined and save more or wait longer. In addition to those two factors one should have a hard look at PRIORITIES in their life and decide what is important. Is buying a case of beer every Friday more important than saving for that optic? Do you need to have 200 channels on TV? Is another pistol/optic/rifle the priority?

What this boils down to is most firearms owners, and I would say most people in general, simply want too much shit. They want everything and they want it now and they don't want to pay for it. Coupled with the hobbyist mentality it's a dangerous combination in many areas, guns being one. When I read about people complaining about the price of quality optics, or guns, or training. All I have to do is look at their previous posts(or current) and the truth is plain as day. They simply haven't adjusted their priorities or simply don't want to. Complaining about the price of quality goods is their excuse for not taking responsibility for their irresponsibility.

Like I mentioned in a previous post, sure, they are maximizing their profit and that is capitalism, but on the flip side, so is losing business to cheaper options if you are charging the customer too much and relying on the "I don't buy Chinese crap" crowd to do it. Labor and R&D does not justify a +$700 price on a 13 year old design. Spotty QC is the fault of the manufacturer who sets the QC rules and enforces them. Companies like PA, Holosun, Vortex,etc, have set the QC standards higher and enforce them pretty effectively.

What I choose is to pay a fair price for a quality product. I will not blindly brand buy no matter where it is made. That actually stifles innovation and in the end will hurt the company you are supporting because they will ride that false "wave of support" until that wave diminishes and due to capitalism it always does.

The only lost business will be to people who are only seeking the cheapest price possible. The design has evolved, I doubt Aimpoint has been sitting on their hands and not refining their technology. Even if they were, does that mean Holosun and Vortex red dots incorporate some amazing new laser or diode technology?! I strongly doubt it. I'm all for paying a fair price for a quality product, but the price is half predicated on the product being quality.

You may not blindly brand buy, but you sound like the type who blindly price buys. Cheap gets your attention. Ethics, quality materials, design, technology, performance history seem to take a distant second place.

No, the problem is the ignorant or cheap consumer demanding the lowest price possible. Then all these 3rd world options appear on the market.

I severely curtailed the amount of gun work I do for people because I'm tired of troubleshooting everyone's problems when they didn't do what I told them to the first time.

Example:

Colt introduced the Expanse line of rifles. It failed. Then, they adulterated the supply chain with these expanse parts that don't have proper identifying Colt markings. We will be dealing with the aftermath of that shit until the end of time. I get weekly emails about it.







I already know about all of that and I won't be buying any of them because I don't have time to chase around mechanical, electrical, and dimensional problems.

Well said sir!

That is a different problem and that always existed and always will.

Alternative options is what makes capitalism work. If not, you have limited choices, and the companies who are the choice aren't pushed to innovate and when Production costs go down and the r&d has all been paid for, they never drop the price because they have it locked in. That is not capitalism and that is also a different problem.

You don't have to buy any of that stuff, but you mentioned dials are the way to go like Aimpoint was the only one who made them. They don't. Like others have mentioned, many who own them are not having any problems that you are mentioning whatsoever. The funny thing is, as more and more people move to alternate choices, you will eventually get to buy your over inflated price Aimpoints for cheaper. When that happens you can thank us later.

The red dot market is pretty stale. The reality is it doesn't need to evolve. The current offerings work and work well(Aimpoint and Trijicon that is). A longer battery life, or smaller or lighter form factor are about the only directions to go. Silly features like "shake awake" are late night infomercial garbage. Solar would be nice but isn't necessary.

You mention others not having problems with their knock offs. Great, neither are those with the trusted brands. The difference is that the trusted brands have a long standing reputation for being reliable(not invicible). The knock offs have a reputation for "their optics are cheap, and so far have been holding up". The fact that people feel the need to champion their knock offs for "holding up" should tell you that even they(the owner) are surprised the product still works. So who's really the fool?

I have and have used many Holosun red dots and the Sig branded Romeo5 Holosun. Never a problem with any of them. For home defense they are more than adequate. If I were in the military I would choose a T1. Aside from that, a fool and his money....

For proof of Holosun pistol red dots https://youtu.be/JuOyq90oa-Q

To be honest, for home defense iron sights and a white light are more than adequate. A red dot is a nice to have, in the case of cheap red dots on an HD gun, "a fool and his money..."

[Core781]

Vortex are made mostly overseas but the company is run in USA. Like Primary Arms: Americans paying taxes.

I prefer made in USA: Eotech, Trijicon, Leuopold, some Vortex, Burris and handful of others.

But what we really need to be aware of is who owns the companies? If it’s owned by an international conglomerate type entity they are not going to put US workers interest to heart.

Many US companies don’t put our workers interests at heart. Sad but true. But they do pay taxes, at least I hope they do..because I know I pay taxes and they should too.

So the argument focus needs to be shifted to who owns the company and do they invest in USA?

I agree US made optics are better. I agree that Vortex and Primary Arms are having fantastic Chinese made optics that can be relied upon for defense for 1/4 to 1/8 the price of a Swedish optic. I have had conversations with the owners of Vortex, Primary, and Larue. They are like me (American Patriots) except talented and successful.. Not nearly as handsome but no ones perfect..

Vortex is working to do more US made optics and yes $500-1000 optic with a lifetime warranty is not that steep by today’s standards or at least pre Corona standards. But buy what you want, what you can afford. Just know a $99 optic may or may not catastrophically fail when you need it most. Be aware of that, and also be aware that iron sights may be needed when your Aimpoint fails also.

And don’t forget that if we allow these mega corps and conglomerates to buy all of our arms manufacturers, we are placing national security at risk. Period.

[Adrenaline_6]

Why shouldn't they cost what they do? Capitalism is about finding the happy medium between maximum profit and a loss in sales. Aimpoint invented the red dot, perfected it and has been the longest and most widely deployed red dot sight in the world. The rest are simply knock offs trying to imitate them. If Aimpoint wasn't offering quality products their prices would be much lower, but they aren't. Do you expect us to believe that Holosun and Vortex are more advanced AND willing to cut their own margins for the benefit of the consumer? The Chinese brands sell for less because they know they're offering an inferior product. For most all they see is cheaper and they're sold. The lower price isn't to persuade the purveyor cheap crap to buy Holosun or Vortex. The lower price is there to try and persuade the Aimpoint types and departments(yes LE departments) that they can get the same product(or close to) for a lot less money. The reality is you simply can't get the same quality for less. The silly features like "shake awake" are nothing but window dressing disguised as "innovation". More an answer to a question no one asked(well maybe Eotech with their pathetic battery life)."
If you don't like the price, don't buy it. But don't pretend like you're getting the same quality for less from a Chinese knock off.

I already mentioned what capitalism is and agree with you on that part, but I also mentioned that it is a double edged sword that will come back and bite you in the ass if you try and charge the customer too much.

Most of the rest of your logic in that statement is flawed beyond measure. Just because Aimpoint makes a quality product, and I never said they didn't, nobody did, it doesn't mean their prices aren't too high, margins excessive, and they can't charge less. Like many products that enter a market after a well known product has dominated it, those companies, as a strategy, have to offer something superior and revolutionary OR offer something competitive, cut their margins and offer price incentive to get there foothold or it doesn't happen. That's just business.

Not getting the same quality for less is also a false statement. So a Colt isn't the same quality (durability and performance wise) as other AR's that cost more? Shake awake is a tweak that helps "add" to battery life - and it isn't that new in the grand scheme of things, just not applied to the red dot until recently.

I never said we were getting the same quality as an Aimpoint, but that it has got to the point where it is for the most point negligible and that the juice was not worth the squeeze anymore.

The only lost business will be to people who are only seeking the cheapest price possible. The design has evolved, I doubt Aimpoint has been sitting on their hands and not refining their technology. Even if they were, does that mean Holosun and Vortex red dots incorporate some amazing new laser or diode technology?! I strongly doubt it. I'm all for paying a fair price for a quality product, but the price is half predicated on the product being quality.

You may not blindly brand buy, but you sound like the type who blindly price buys. Cheap gets your attention. Ethics, quality materials, design, technology, performance history seem to take a distant second place.

The red dot market is pretty stale. The reality is it doesn't need to evolve. The current offerings work and work well(Aimpoint and Trijicon that is). A longer battery life, or smaller or lighter form factor are about the only directions to go. Silly features like "shake awake" are late night infomercial garbage. Solar would be nice but isn't necessary.

You mention others not having problems with their knock offs. Great, neither are those with the trusted brands. The difference is that the trusted brands have a long standing reputation for being reliable(not invicible). The knock offs have a reputation for "their optics are cheap, and so far have been holding up". The fact that people feel the need to champion their knock offs for "holding up" should tell you that even they(the owner) are surprised the product still works. So who's really the fool?

The design has barely evolved dude - come on. They just released the T2, which is barely an improvement over a T1, which is in itself 13 years old. No one said any of the brands were releasing amazing new technology. No one. Just incremental tweaks and improvements.

"The product doesn't need to evolve" is what killed the US auto manufacturers too. At one time Japanese cars were crap, then S Korean cars were also crap. Look at them now. Burying the US - quality wise. Relying on reputation, laying on your haunches, charging significantly more for absolutely nothing, and relying on blind fan boy support for sales while other manufacturers equal and eventually surpass you gets your business in a world of hurt quick. That is Capitalism.

Most logical people here are for the same thing. Fair price for a quality product. You seem to ignore the fair price part. That is subjective. If it is fair to you then pay the +$700 for a T2 and rock on. I, and many others don't think so. Respect that opinion like we do yours. No one said you were stupid for buying an Aimpoint. If you somehow feel that it is being implied, then that is your own conscience speaking to you, not us.

Your last statement is also flawed logic. So if both products are not really having problems, one has a long standing reputation and the other one doesn't, they differ only in opinion and reputation, performance and durability are in the real world negligible. You mentioned above yourself that you are all for paying a fair price for a quality product. Isn't that what that is then?

I would have no problem buying an Aimpoint nowadays, just not for what they are currently charging. For the most part, it is a rugged aluminum tube, an led, and optical quality glass. They are charging almost what a modern cell phone costs which has a significant processor, RAM memory, multiple lens megapixel cameras - front and back, a Quad HD AMOLED screen, and an OS that gets updated on a regular basis. There is no way it is worth near what they are charging.

[Esq.]

Vortex Crossfire Micro is solid enough for home defense: it's no longer in the range toy category. I had Eotech fail on me, and two older Aimpoints: like them Vortex is evolving better stronger sights. I have two Aimpoints sitting in pieces in a box because Aimpoint will not warranty them: they are pathetic. But if you want the best go for Trijicon or Vortex HD Razer/UH-1. I don't like Aimpoint warranty or lack thereof and it's not American. I prefer Eotech ring dot holosight, and Eotech stands behind their products also. The truth hurts.

You must have peed in someones post toasties at Aimpoint because I've had excellent warranty service from them. I had a rifle that was BURNED UP IN A FIRE with an Aimpoint on it. The Aimpoint was literally scrap. I sent it to them, not really expecting anything. I got a call asking about what happened to it and I explained the situation honestly. Guy says, "We have quite a few used, LEO units we took on trade right now, be ok if I sent you one as an exchange?" ...Uh, YEA!

Now, I do know they won't service DRMO units etc....I did run into that issue with an Aimpoint I bought at a gunshow and tried to send back for an issue.

[sva01]

Vortex Crossfire Micro is solid enough for home defense: it's no longer in the range toy category. I had Eotech fail on me, and two older Aimpoints: like them Vortex is evolving better stronger sights. I have two Aimpoints sitting in pieces in a box because Aimpoint will not warranty them: they are pathetic. But if you want the best go for Trijicon or Vortex HD Razer/UH-1. I don't like Aimpoint warranty or lack thereof and it's not American. I prefer Eotech ring dot holosight, and Eotech stands behind their products also. The truth hurts.

I bought two Vortex Crossfire red dots for range guns that my boys use. I had one of the guns leaning up against the wall with the stock on a concrete floor. Rifle slid and landed hard on the concrete floor and knocked the battery knob off the side of the optic in one clean piece. Optic was obviously dead right there. Vortex replaced it in prompt fashion but I hope that my Aimpoints would handle that scenario differently. Again, they're for range toys and bought because they were inexpensive but I'm not sure how robust they are...

[Wake27]

Vortex are made mostly overseas but the company is run in USA. Like Primary Arms: Americans paying taxes.

I prefer made in USA: Eotech, Trijicon, Leuopold, some Vortex, Burris and handful of others.

But what we really need to be aware of is who owns the companies? If it’s owned by an international conglomerate type entity they are not going to put US workers interest to heart.

Many US companies don’t put our workers interests at heart. Sad but true. But they do pay taxes, at least I hope they do..because I know I pay taxes and they should too.

So the argument focus needs to be shifted to who owns the company and do they invest in USA?

I agree US made optics are better. I agree that Vortex and Primary Arms are having fantastic Chinese made optics that can be relied upon for defense for 1/4 to 1/8 the price of a Swedish optic. I have had conversations with the owners of Vortex, Primary, and Larue. They are like me (American Patriots) except talented and successful.. Not nearly as handsome but no ones perfect..

Vortex is working to do more US made optics and yes $500-1000 optic with a lifetime warranty is not that steep by today’s standards or at least pre Corona standards. But buy what you want, what you can afford. Just know a $99 optic may or may not catastrophically fail when you need it most. Be aware of that, and also be aware that iron sights may be needed when your Aimpoint fails also.

And don’t forget that if we allow these mega corps and conglomerates to buy all of our arms manufacturers, we are placing national security at risk. Period.

I agree for the most part. Vortex seems to be a good American company by all accounts. Supporting them even with foreign optics is better than supporting a completely foreign owned business IMO.


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[Adrenaline_6]

I bought two Vortex Crossfire red dots for range guns that my boys use. I had one of the guns leaning up against the wall with the stock on a concrete floor. Rifle slid and landed hard on the concrete floor and knocked the battery knob off the side of the optic in one clean piece. Optic was obviously dead right there. Vortex replaced it in prompt fashion but I hope that my Aimpoints would handle that scenario differently. Again, they're for range toys and bought because they were inexpensive but I'm not sure how robust they are...

It didn't according to an old thread with similar scenario. Not a knock on an Aimpoint, because that's a tough ask and I wouldn't expect it to. This area is where there is allowed rotation and is thin and hollow for the most part.

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