Lightweight level 4 plate recommendation?

[Naphtali]

Except not everyone runs soft armor under their plates. That's the whole point of standalone plates, after all. The 4800LV are bad ass if you're throwing them on over soft armor or if you have backers, but if you don't, then you're stuck with getting 4800s to meet performance spec, which I don't see any advantage over other high quality Level IVs in terms of thickness, like the TenCate Cratus 4400 or Venture FM4 (note that most Level IV ICWs are about the same thickness as the 4800LVs, though I believe that the 4800LVs are the lightest, same with the 4800). Realistically, the 4800LVs are probably going to meet Level III, and the levels are way overblown, anyway (I would agree that the 4800L would serve most folks better than the 4800s if the AP is the only thing that's failing without backers), but I would find it very disingenuous to call these Level IV, let alone the best of the bunch. There is also something to be said about the durability argument, when these are failing the drop tests.

I don't think it's disingenuous - Hesco's own internal threat matrix says it stops AP rounds (see my post #37). For reference on their threat matrix policy, Hesco does NOT list the U210 plate as stopping M80 in their threat matrix, even though it does stop single round M80 but with a BFD of 46mm, while the NIJ requires 44mm or less. So they're very conservative, and they just say it doesn't stop the round. The opposite is true of the 4800LV, which they say stops all the listed rounds. Which is confusing, because their policy is never to say this on a threat matrix, unless it passes NIJ standards, and then they sort of nebulously say (for some unmentioned round or rounds) that it "does not meet... backface signature deformation requirements of NIJ Standard–0101.06". And if you Google NIJ Standard–0101.06, it's an unhelpful large number of different NIJ policies.

So it stops rounds properly enough to include them on the threat matrix, and it also does not stop rounds properly. I'll call Hesco and ask them to clarify Monday. Will also ask about the drop test comment, as previously on the phone, their tech guy said these fare better when dropped than the U210s (which are ceramic), because the 4800LVs are not really ceramic, which is part of what CBP liked about them. And U210 passes drop testing (in military torture trials that went beyond NIJ testing). None of this makes much sense.

[Naphtali]

OK a lot of good info from Hesco today, and about more than just Hesco products.

-- There is no ceramic armor on the market under 0.9" thick (they think) that is level III. Any company claiming this is "bullshit", as no one has invented some new god-material, and you can't cheat physics. This ignores steel / other bad materials that you would never want to use due to weight / spalling.

-- The 4800LV stops M80 ~ 75% of the time with NIJ-level BFD. The other 25% of the time it is mildly over. M80 never penetrates in the first 3 rounds.

-- The 4800LV stops .308 AP (M2) ~ 33% of the time with NIJ-level BFD. The other 67% of the time it is mildly over. M2 never penetrates in the first shot.

-- The 4800LV has trivial BFD against 5.56 - you won't be injured. Broken ribs etc. are generally a .308 thing, moreso AP.

-- The U210 has trivial BFD against 5.56 - you won't be injured. Broken ribs etc. are generally a .308 thing, moreso AP.

-- U210 stops M80 ~ 33% of the time with NIJ-level BFD. The other 67% of the time it is mildly over. 1st round M80 never penetrates. 2nd round M80 rarely partially penetrates but never fully. 3rd round M80 sometimes partially penetrates but never fully.

-- M2 always penetrates the U210.

-- No ceramic armor (from any company, as far as they know) under 0.9" thick passes NIJ drop testing. You have to have external foam all over for that to happen on a ceramic plate, which means you're basically at / over 1". Also adds quite a bit of weight.

-- The only NIJ drop test that 4800LV / U210 fail is the one where the plate is dropped on its front face with weighted clay on the back of the plate. SOCOM / LE agencies are generally not concerned with NIJ drop testing, which they consider overkill. NIJ attaches extra clay weights and drops the armor on concrete. SOCOM / LE are more concerned with just dropping the plate on concrete (no extra weights). 4800LV and U210 both pass this lesser mil standard. 4800LV is more drop-resistant than U210. SOCOM / LE don't care about NIJ drops b/c they don't want to wear heavy 1" plates, and think a bit greater BFD in .308 and .308 AP, and less drop resistance, is totally worth it for a lighter 0.6" plate.

-- 4800LV will have better BFD for all rounds vs U210. Only really matters at .308 though, in tested rounds (6.5 / 6.8 etc. are never tested). Also resists drop damage better as noted above.

-- From Hesco's tech support - "I can't tell you who this is, but imagine the highest level / Tier One Law Enforcement guys in the U.S. dealing with hostage rescue / terrorism, etc. They use the 4800LV. They wanted to better handle larger calibers than the U210 but don't want to wear a 1" plate." I probed a bit and my best guess was that he was talking about either the FBI's hostage rescue teams or stateside Tier One military guys who function basically as federal LEOs.

-- There are no NIJ standards for rifle rounds that aren't M80 or AP M2. Other rounds are all special threats, and whether companies choose to claim their plate "stops" them is completely up to them, without NIJ requirements. Just can't penetrate, but no BFD requirements. So when Velocity Systems claims their U210-clone stops M80, but Hesco says U210 BFD isn't good enough to claim this, it's basically the exact same plate (Hesco makes a lot of Velocity System's plates). Same with the STOP-BZ plate. They're all Boron carbide in the same thickness, without foam, and work the same.

-- The 4800LV (or 4800 which has the extra foam) is an amalgam of multiple different ceramic materials and is the most advanced armor material commercially available today, from a weight and thickness to performance ratio. Extremely expensive to make correctly. One of the few things better than pure Boron carbide.

-- Putting a IIIa panel behind a 4800LV plate should give it NIJ level IV equivalent BFD performance 100% of the time, instead of 33%. This has not been tested, but the foam on the 4800 plates is thinner / less impact-protecting than a IIIa panel.

-- 4800LV and U210 are both wearable concealed under a shirt one size larger than your standard size. I didn't think this was the case - and was skeptical on the phone when he said this - until my LAPG low-vis carrier arrived coincidentally this afternoon, and I wore my 10.25x13.25" U210s while walking the dog. It was actually much thinner / much more concealable than my pistol vest I've worn for years with a IIIa panel and 0.3" pistol plates. My wife - who is used to looking at (and bitching intermittently about) my vest printing - thought I wasn't wearing any armor until I asked her to feel my shirt. I should be getting 4800LVs in another month, which is 0.11" thicker than U210 (0.56 vs 0.67), and will post about this later - I'd imagine it's still pretty concealable under a large shirt. You do lose a lot of IIIa protected areas compared to a vest, like your entire both sides / higher on your back / navel-height in the front and a couple inches up / clavicles & axillary crease. In an impossibly-guaranteed pistol or shotgun fight, I'd much rather have my vest on for its probably 50% greater area of protection vs just a front and rear rifle plate.


My take home is this - 1" plates do everything NIJ asks, but I put my old thick level III plates in a closet years ago b/c they just sucked to wear from a bulk standpoint. Weight of 7.5 lbs per plate then (for 10x12) vs 4.7 / 5.6 lbs now (for 10.25 x 13.25 in U210 / 4800LV) is also a big difference. And performance is a tie in 5.56, and a tie in 7.62 x 39, and it should still save my life in .308 meeting NIJ BFD 75% of the time. I'll take a bit greater BFD at .308 for the sake of never wearing (or leaving in a closet) another 1" plate. It doesn't matter how good the heavy & thick armor that you don't wear is.