So Seriously...Apocalypse Now...

[CRAMBONE]

alcoholic what can't manage his own shit and punches mirrors. That's pretty much the opposite of what special forces is supposed to be, especially those who go hunting men as a MOS.

Have you never hung out with any vets, much less SF dudes?

[1168]

Have you never hung out with any vets, much less SF dudes?

Lol. Thats pretty much what I was thinking.

[SteyrAUG]

Have you never hung out with any vets, much less SF dudes?

Yeah, from the time I was 12. Most of my martial arts instructors were in Vietnam, damn near everyone my father shot with was in Vietnam and while I didn't completely understand the BFD at the time, most of the guys who taught me how to shoot were actual special forces.

Now I've met all kinds of vets. I met the kind who "Man...it sucked...you didn't know what was going on...charlie was everywhere but we also couldn't find him...they didn't give us what we needed to win...and when we tried to make do with what we had they still wouldn't let us win...also everyone was on drugs so you were kind of all alone...etc. etc." So yeah, I've met that guy....a lot of times. But he was never really special forces, he was never in Laos and Cambodia like he claimed and it wasn't on his DD214 because it was all classified spook ops for the CIA.

Most of the guys I knew refused to be ashamed because they didn't do anything wrong and they were annoyed at the people who wanted them to be ashamed. They felt lucky they got home, most has either mild to severe survivor guilt, but the main things was they wanted to take care of their families and move forward. Like a lot of vets, sure some drank...but most weren't constantly on the verge of a breakdown.

The guys who were actual special forces of any kind they didn't do that shit because that is the kind of shit that got you or other people killed. They tended to carry that over into their personal lives when they got out.

Now I also don't blame anyone who couldn't keep it tight. There was a guy on my grandparents block. My grandmother hated him because he lived at home, never seemed to find a real job and she thought he was a giant mooch. There was probably some truth to that. But my grandfather helped him whenever he could, would even hire him on an off an on basis so he could work for his handout even though he wasn't really qualified to do much. But my grandfather was also a vet so he understood the guy probably saw more than he could handle and it changed his life. There was probably a lot of truth to that view as well.

But yeah, I've hung out with all kinds of vets for most of my life. The WWII guys were my heroes and I could listen to them tell war stories all day long. The VN guys were a lot of my teachers and while sometimes I didn't understand some of the ideas they were trying to express, I listened to them just the same. And as a LE/MIL supplier, I run into lots of vets, but most of the ones I encounter have their shit together and aren't punching mirrors.

Shit even the guys I know who have enough prosthetics to give Lee Major a run for his money are mostly making the most of it. They have the most cause to feel sorry for themselves and bitch but probably do it less than anyone I know. They usually embarrass the shit out of me because I say something dumb trying to be empathetic like "Man, that must be really hard huh?" and they just come back with "What am I gonna do? Stop walking? How would I get to the range to shoot the guns I buy?"

Not sure I could pull off that sunny attitude if it happened to me.

[1168]

SNIP. sure some drank...but most weren't constantly on the verge of a breakdown. SNIP

And as a LE/MIL supplier, I run into lots of vets, but most of the ones I encounter have their shit together and aren't punching mirrors.

.

One of the things that makes “special” guys “special” is the ability to compartmentalize.

A Unit headshrinker once told me that in our population, it is difficult to identify problems. Because someone that is struggling will not let it effect his work. And he will hide it, very effectively, from anyone not in his inner-most circle. The earliest signs come in their personal life. This may manifest as failed relationships, drinking, drugs, risky behavior, etc.

Most guys have their shit together. But there are guys that are in a perpetual state of being on the verge of a “breakdown” of some sort. And that doesn’t make them bad troops. In fact, as noted above, they just need an excuse to sober up and put in some work. And most of their peers or associates will never know.

Its all about circles and compartments.


Edit: I can think of several very good “special” Soldiers/Sailors/Marines/Airmen that had to be relieved due to their early warning signs creeping into their professional compartment, or getting into hot water. Hell, one literally got into hot water. He flooded a hotel when he passed out running bathwater, in another country. In another case, one of my best friends got a little too drunk at a formal event in a hotel and got into several fistfights. And there was the guy that totaled two vehicles in a week. And the guy that never got in trouble, but flipped a truck while pounding Kraken and doing J-turns. Or the ones that suddenly started smoking piles of dope.

[ThirdWatcher]

When I was serving in the ROK, a Supply Sergeant told me about a soldier he’d supervised (in the past) He was a good soldier except for the fact he’d go on a bender every payday and not show up for work (i.e. AWOL). He wound up giving him a three day pass every payday and that took care of the problem. That story has always stayed with me as a good example of effective leadership in the real world.

“Apocalypse Now” would have been a better movie if they left in some of the deleted scenes that are on Youtube.

[SteyrAUG]

Edit: I can think of several very good “special” Soldiers/Sailors/Marines/Airmen that had to be relieved due to their early warning signs creeping into their professional compartment, or getting into hot water. Hell, one literally got into hot water. He flooded a hotel when he passed out running bathwater, in another country. In another case, one of my best friends got a little too drunk at a formal event in a hotel and got into several fistfights. And there was the guy that totaled two vehicles in a week. And the guy that never got in trouble, but flipped a truck while pounding Kraken and doing J-turns. Or the ones that suddenly started smoking piles of dope.

Sure, I can accept that.

But perhaps different from what was depicted in Apocalypse Now. But maybe that was another irony point Coppola was working, that the guy they sent after the guy who was losing his shit, was also losing his shit. We should probably also return this discussion to the context of plausibility within the confines of this film.

[1168]

Sure, I can accept that.

But perhaps different from what was depicted in Apocalypse Now. But maybe that was another irony point Coppola was working, that the guy they sent after the guy who was losing his shit, was also losing his shit. We should probably also return this discussion to the context of plausibility within the confines of this film.

Pretty much the point I was making is that the scene with Sheen loosing his shit in a hotel room was completely believable part to me. Never even registered as something to question. Haven’t seen it in awhile... didn’t he (the character) have a Ranger Tab?

Also, there’s this, don’t know much about this site: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078788/trivia
But it looked interesting.

[SteyrAUG]

Pretty much the point I was making is that the scene with Sheen loosing his shit in a hotel room was completely believable part to me. Never even registered as something to question. Haven’t seen it in awhile... didn’t he (the character) have a Ranger Tab?

Also, there’s this, don’t know much about this site: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078788/trivia
But it looked interesting.

In the movie, he was MAC-V SOG. At the time that was a group that recruited from Special Forces. If you read up on the history of Studies and Observations Group they really don't present as guys who are unstable. Even Lynne Black who wrote "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot" about his time in the group described a guys that "worked hard and played hard" but not really like the kind of instability Sheen portrayed at the opening of Apocalypse.

But from your link, this does make a LOT of sense.

"An early scene where Captain Willard is alone in his hotel room was completely unscripted. Martin Sheen told the camera crew to just let the cameras roll. Sheen was really drunk. He punched the mirror, which was real glass, cutting his thumb. Sheen also began sobbing and tried to attack director Francis Ford Coppola. The crew was so disturbed that they wanted to stop shooting, but Sheen wanted to keep the cameras going. At the time he was fighting a drinking problem and his own issues. He got so caught up in the scene and his own inner struggles that he hit the mirror. He believed that continuing the scene would help him face his problems. This was revealed later in a conversation with Coppola and Sheen, and has been shown in the Redux version."

I totally buy that scene as a Hollywood actor coming apart, just not as a member of SOG.

Speaking of trivia, here's one some might not know.

When Willard arrives at Kurtz camp, the bodies on display are actual human bodies ordered from the morgue. At the time the Marcos government was in power and strongly catered to the Hollywood film industry and was willing to do almost anything to accommodate them.

[kerplode]

Been a long time since I've seen it. I remember not liking it at all, but I don't think I really "got" it...I was in my teens, so maybe too young. Also, the one or two Vietnam guys I knew back then were mostly full of shit, so I didn't pay them a lot of attention.

I should watch it again, but that seems kinda tedious.

[CRAMBONE]

Compartmentalization is a big part of it. There is also the work hard, train hard, fight hard, play hard and live hard mindset.

And when someone like that, under loads of stress, gets to cut loose it happens at full throttle. Steyr I don’t want you to think I’m bashing your childhood heroes but I’m quite sure a lot of them had moments like we are discussing. You just never knew it because they kept it from you or hid it well. Or maybe my generation (GWOT) of vets and I are different, but I doubt that.