Chinese Made Optics

[1986s4]

There hasn't been Chinese ammo since 1994 and very very few guns after 1994. Some off brand shotguns I believe. That's about it

Yeah, I wasn't sure about that. My brother has had a Norinco AK for many years.

[Arik]

Yeah, I wasn't sure about that. My brother has had a Norinco AK for many years.

That all stopped in 94 with the exception of a few occasional shotguns

[drsal]

The choices on purchases of ____, is not to limit your purchases to only Made in USA, but to buy items made anywhere but china, be it Mexico, Spain, Vietnam, Japan, Germany, whatever, just not Red Chyna. Yesterday, went to local bike shop for cycling shorts, $30 for chicom zefal brand vs. $80 for Garneau made in Mexico; bought two pairs of Garneau. **** Red China.

[titsonritz]

I want to be clear, I have no problem buying goods that are made outside the USA, but no more Chinese for me.

The choices on purchases of ____, is not to limit your purchases to only Made in USA, but to buy items made anywhere but china, be it Mexico, Spain, Vietnam, Japan, Germany, whatever, just not Red Chyna. Yesterday, went to local bike shop for cycling shorts, $30 for chicom zefal brand vs. $80 for Garneau made in Mexico; bought two pairs of Garneau. **** Red China.

This is exactly where I stand. Sure I'd like to purchase made in USA products but that isn't a must for me, doing my damndest to not giving a dime to commie whores is the priority here. And yes, **** Red China.

[Valhalla]

[EDIT: It looks like my plea to read through my post before flaming is falling on deaf ears... so here is the tl;dr version: if a product is fully designed and controlled by a U.S. company, but just outsourced elsewhere (be it China or not), don't fret over it. You could actually be helping the U.S. economy by doing do. But if it's a clone from China, murder it without prejudice and I will join you in the act. Original text below.]



Came a little late, but let me open this can of worm first: I will buy Chinese-made products any day, with a *disclaimer*. But before you start flaming, please read through my entire post first. It's a little long but will be worth it.

There are two types of Made-in-China. One is American innovation produced offshore. One is American innovation being ripped off. The former HELPS U.S. economy, frequently even MORE so than if that same product is 100% produced in America. THAT is when I am willing to buy Chinese made.

Let me elaborate.

Take PA optics as an example, since they are already on the spotlight. A good red dot can be produced for about $50 from China, if you buy enough, and PA certainly can. But even though their cost is around $50, PA needs to retail them at ~$150 because their dealers and distributors need sufficient margin. So for a $50 scope, PA may sells them to a large distributor at $75, distributor will sell to retail dealers at about $105, and you pay $150 at your LGS. That gives everyone about 30% margin, pretty standard requirements.

Now let's talk about Aimpoint. An T-1 cost them probably close to $300 to make, distributor cost maybe in the $450 range, street price $600-700. And I would argue that at least $50 worth of components inside any T1 are still imported, be it glass or electronics or otherwise.

So let's do the math. We know even conservatively speaking, PA red dots will easily outsell T-1s 100-to-1 (especially outside of our "elite" group of firearm owners), because their attractive price-point ALLOWS lower-income Americans to enjoy an excellent optic. Aka if Aimpoint sells 1,000 T-1 per year, PA would've sold 100,000 units in the same period. Assuming average street price of each Aimpoint being $650, and $50 of which is from imported components (i.e. those money will leave the country), the total contribution to domestic economy is $600x1,000 = $600,000 annually. PA, on contrast, contributed $100x100,000 = 10 million dollars into domestic economy. Yes I am over-simplifying it, but where will those $600k and $10M go? Paying for the warehouse guy shipping your PA scopes, store keeper in your LGS helping you out with your optic purchase, marketing guy working in PA's headquarter, rent for domestic real-estate properties, and indirectly even the dude who repairs electric cables because all of the above American establishments pay for electricity. Aka American payrolls. Oh and also, large parts do go to investors - such as your retirement account. That's what I mean by "contribution to U.S. economy".

Now who is dong more for America? $600k (Aimpoint) or $10M (PA)?

If you study economic, you will see we enjoyed steady growth in the past few decades BECAUSE of imported products. It constantly shifts our workforce from cheap manual-labor job, to high-tech design, development, and service-industry related positions - improving quality of life. You may hate me for saying this, but every time we exported a blue-collar job to China, we forced an American to re-educate him/herself and ultimately earn a better-pay job. I don't really think that's bad.

My point is, buying stuff that is made in China, or India, or Vietnam, or Pakistan (or even Iran for that matter), isn't the sticking point. The important part is WHERE that product is DESIGNED, and WHO control the BRAND. As long as it is a U.S. brand, you can be sure most of the profits remain in U.S., and those are being spent on Americans. Take Apple as an example, we regularly pay $700+ for an iPhone where Apple pays maybe $200 to Foxconn for production. So for every iPhone sold, after getting split between the multiple layers of American distribution, $500+ stays here. What's so bad about it?

But to circle back to my original "disclaimer", what you guys need to STOP buying are Chinese KNOCK OFFs. The people who most harm our economy, are those who took (stole?) American design, and make 1:1 replica without paying a dime to U.S. companies. I mean, when they have no R&D cost, of course they can undercut the original. They will sell them dirt-cheap, and we will buy them... because we "sort by price". Then they take all the profit back to China. Those are the people who really hurt us.

I am not affiliated with PA at all, in fact all of our M-lok light bodies are 100% USA-made with USA materials, right here in Ohio... so I am somewhat shooting myself in the foot. But if you are barking at PA only because their products are made in China, you have your sight set at the wrong guy (pun intended). Aim your barrels at all the no-name Amazon sellers who make fake Railscale hand stops, T-1 clones, etc first... or even America companies who import nothing but knock offs (don't make me name them... lol).

To protect America, we must protect our I.P. first. Jobs will follow thereafter. Think of it this way: when Apple (or PA, or whoever) design stuff in the U.S. and outsource production to China, that's exploiting China's cheap labor. But when someone import knock-offs and sell them dirt cheap (to make a dime), that's enriching all the overseas thieves. The differences may be subtle, but the impact to our economy is huge.



Valhalla Tactical

[Coal Dragger]

I disagree.

I do not care about your margins being better outsourcing production to China. I will not buy that shit period if there is any alternative.

[yoni]

I disagree 100% with the Valhalla Tactical post, it is that thinking that got us here. Produce the scope someplace else, the Chinese are pure evil and want to destroy the USA.

Have PA find a factory in some other place. One of the top exports from the Dominican Republic is medical devices, so I am sure someone could produce scopes there. I even have a couple of friends that are involved in building the latest free trade zones there. I am willing to make introductions and I want nothing out of it.

No, I just lied. I will get satisfaction on messing with the Chicoms.

[Straight Shooter]

I agree with yoni 100%- LEARN TO USE IRON SIGHTS.
Ive shot decades longer without ANY electronic shit at all- and if it ALL disappeared tonight I really wouldnt give two shits.
In NO WAY am I at a disadvantage with irons. Ive laughed repeatedly on this forum at dudes who seem get off on pointing out the fact theyve got this or that electronic sight and how they dont need irons. I think its idiotic and tells me about all I need to know about you as a so called "shooter"..but hey, you do you, & Ill do me.
As for Valhalla...ALL OF IT can go piss up a rope. I was gonna sell a Holosun Ive had for a few years...but that bastard is going to the range...and it AINT coming back.
Film at 11:00.

[Valhalla]

I disagree.

I do not care about your margins being better outsourcing production to China. I will not buy that shit period if there is any alternative.

I see that you didn't read through my post... margin was never an argument. But I am glad you will be buying our products!! Since we do make our stuff in America!

Produce the scope someplace else.

I did say it could be made elsewhere; it's the "American or nothing" mentality that needs correction. Sometimes outsourcing can be good. For example, will a factory owned by a pro-democratic business in Hong Kong be OK? I'd think we should be supporting that!

[flenna]

Here is Chinese innovation:
I worked for a manufacturer that is an OEM supplier and the largest of it's kind in the world with plants in the U.S. and as of about 15 years ago one in Mexico. One of our salesman went to an international trade show and wandered over to a Chinese manufacturer. One of their parts looked identical to our biggest runner so he picked it up and looked at it. Stamped in the steel housing was a small flaw caused by the tooling. Well, this flaw was on our mass produced part and has been for years. They Chicom company copied our part right down to a small flaw in the tooling.