NFA Clarification...

[Tx_Aggie]

I was just teasing

[Tx_Aggie]

That's correct, but it's not being sold as a Title 1 firearm. It's being sold as a Title 2 firearm as Eurodriver described. The one in the link. It is a registered Title 2 and that's why the description says NFA.

( Unlike when you see a 12" upper on a link and it says NFA Rules Apply ) <<< That's different. That means you are responsible to be legal with your purchase. The link above though is for a real NFA ticket. When you get that in your hands you are in the game and the ATF knows it.

If you have a SBR and have had the fun you want with it, you can disassemble the upper from it, tell BATF to remove it, sell off all the pieces except the lower which may have to be a 'transfer/sale' depending on where you live and who you sell it to etc.. But it back to it's original state of being -aside- from the having been built into a rifle aspect.

That rifle / pistol deal. pistol > rifle = ok, rifle > pistol = no bueno ---- but don't hold me to that in this scenario. I'm honestly not sure what they would say a lower>SBR>un-registered lower = ?

The new owner would not be changing a rifle to anything, they would be changing a lower so I honestly don't know. When in doubt just buy a new lower and start from scratch. You know, don't create solutions for self created problems you don't need. AKA don't shoot yourself in the foot just see if it hurts.

My personal opinion is that all the ATF stuff with regard making and changing things is directly associated with physical items that are not easily put back to the original... not always, but a lot.

My view would be...

Title 1 Lower > SBR > Un-registered Lower > = Make anything you want. ---- this one sort of began life as either / or but it's first weapon condition was rifle

eta: BTW, many people make their first build a Pistol while waiting for their stamp. Pistol>Rifle>Pistol = OK. So again, my opinion ( which means nothing to ATF ) is that all Title 1 Lowers are 'anything goes' for their entire lives.


Title 2 Lower = SBR > Un-registered Lower > = Make another Rifle but not a Pistol ---- this one pretty much began life as a rifle ( Colt LE6991 = SBR by definition from Colt as far as I know. I don't think there is LE6991 pistol ) this one was never really available to any end user other than as a Rifle.

But that's just me.

Again, who's going to un-register AND care what happens next? Maybe someone settling an estate.

Good stuff, thanks for the clarification!

[juliet9]

There’s only one legal definition of “short-barreled rifle,” and “having a serial number listed in the registry” ain’t it.

This is a good one. You can interpret just about anything to suit your desires, kinda like statistics.

You are trying to apply logic to federal gun laws. What is wrong with you? Get some help.

A rifle with a barrel <16” is an SBR. Period. 100% of the time. There should be no disputing this. Right? Ok.

Next - A rifle that was previously registered as an SBR but has the barrel removed can be three things based on what the owner wants it to be.

A “firearm” (as a receiver)
A “short barrel rifle” (as a receiver)
Or a “pistol” (as a receiver, if it started as a pistol)

(Although, technically it is none of these, whilst simultaneously being all of these, unless it’s assembled - a Schroedinger’s SBR of sorts!)

These designations are entirely up to the owner and it can be sold as any of these (provided it meets the criteria)

No notification is required to the BATFE (except for, of course, if it’s transferred as an SBR).



You are.

For all the guys that are curious about SBR ownership, do not take all you read on the internet as factual, particularly on a gun board. Everyone loves to have their interpretation of the ATF handbook as shown in the quoted post. What is highlighted in red, is irrefutably incorrect, unless status is changed in the registry.

Having been C3 and LE supply since around 1978-79, one thing I learned, and irrespective of what you may be told or think, if a weapon is in the NFA registry, it remains so until that status is changed, Period. I can tell you this, if I have an SBR in my books, and my examiner asks me where it is, and I say I sold it as a Title 1 firearm, he/she is gonna say WTF? You didn't change status in the registry, in effect selling an NFA item w/o proper paperwork. I don't like those types of whoops moments. Some guys like to push it, and if push comes to shove, you are gonna lose.

The thing is with the AR15 being a modular weapon, some guys thinks that gives them a caveat, like, there is not obligation on their part. Keep dissecting and analyzing the "definitions" and you could be playing with fire. This is not a case of it is easier to ask forgiveness that it is permission. Most of the guys hang their hat on this one sentence from the handbook:

2.5 If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon.

It also states in the Handbook:

3.7 Maintaining registration documents. A person possessing an NFA firearm registered as required by law must retain proof of registration, that is, the document showing the person’s registration, which must be made available to ATF upon request.


The change such a putting on a 16" barrel or longer for whatever reason, is TEMPORARY in nature and does not change the status in the registry. The owner of an SBR, individual or dealer, cannot unilaterally change the SBR status by removing the upper. The receiver is the weapon, weather there is an upper on it or not. To cavalierly think otherwise could possibly get a fellow in trouble.


Here is a good read from Ranier Arms. Pay close attention to traveling and sale of an SBR. You will also note the use of the word "temporarily" in the text.

https://www.rainierarms.com/blog/atf...=5eca8c7863e3d

Here is another, and while the author is tongue in cheek a bit, his points are valid. Note what he says about opinions and the court house steps.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/l...-barrel-rifle/

[tb-av]

I don't think anyone is saying you can sell off a registered lower and pretend it's no longer a controlled item. BUT... if you want to do that, there is a means to do so. Simply take it apart, have it removed from the register, and sell it.

"No longer NFA item" doesn't mean no longer registered.

These designations are entirely up to the owner and it can be sold as any of these (provided it meets the criteria)

If you want to sell it in a certain way you can. Maybe you will have to get it unregistered. You still have a mechanism to achieve your goal. I don't think anyone has said your item goes off the books on a whim. If you want to sell it out of state you can do that too... but of course you have to meet certain criteria, such as using an FFL.

The owner of an SBR, individual or dealer, cannot unilaterally change the SBR status by removing the upper. The receiver is the weapon, weather there is an upper on it or not. To cavalierly think otherwise could possibly get a fellow in trouble.

Yes, that's what I believe we all agree on, and I never read Eurodriver's posts otherwise. If I have lead someone to think otherwise, it wasn't intended. In fact the registered lower on the web site linked about demonstrates that. That was also my point about why would anyone want to go to the trouble of registering only to have to unregisteer, lose your $200, only to sell something. Just accept the fact a registered lower is generally what people do on a permanent basis.

So no..... don't sell a registered lower.... but if you must, there are methods to have it meet all the necessary legal criteria to allow you to do by getting it off the books.

[juliet9]

I don't think anyone is saying you can sell off a registered lower and pretend it's no longer a controlled item. BUT... if you want to do that, there is a means to do so. Simply take it apart, have it removed from the register, and sell it.

Eurodriver is saying exactly that.

Y
Next - A rifle that was previously registered as an SBR but has the barrel removed can be three things based on what the owner wants it to be.

A “firearm” (as a receiver)
A “short barrel rifle” (as a receiver)
Or a “pistol” (as a receiver, if it started as a pistol)

(Although, technically it is none of these, whilst simultaneously being all of these, unless it’s assembled - a Schroedinger’s SBR of sorts!)

These designations are entirely up to the owner and it can be sold as any of these (provided it meets the criteria)

No notification is required to the BATFE (except for, of course, if it’s transferred as an SBR).

That in red is simply not true. I will repeat what I said previously, you cannot unilaterally remove an SBR from the registry simply by removing the short upper. That is a fact, not some pie in the sky "loophole" that these geniuses think they can fiddle with. While he tags on the "meets the criteria" on the end in parenthesis, what does that even mean? Exactly what "criteria" and for what exactly is it being met? Very vague.

"No longer NFA item" doesn't mean no longer registered.

I think that is where the disconnect is. Yes, it is an NFA item according to the registry, the only thing that really matters. Sure, you can swap uppers, but that is only temporary in nature according to ATF, and if push comes to shove, it is an NFA item until the status is changed. I will offer the example one more time, my examiner looks at my A&D, and there is an SBR in there, he/she doesn't give a shit if there is an upper on it or not. It is an NFA item and will be treated as such.

You want to hire an attorney and argue this crap in court, your interpretation of what a gov't manual says?

If you want to sell it in a certain way you can. Maybe you will have to get it unregistered. You still have a mechanism to achieve your goal. I don't think anyone has said your item goes off the books on a whim. If you want to sell it out of state you can do that too... but of course you have to meet certain criteria, such as using an FFL.

Yes, that's what I believe we all agree on, and I never read Eurodriver's posts otherwise. If I have lead someone to think otherwise, it wasn't intended. In fact the registered lower on the web site linked about demonstrates that. That was also my point about why would anyone want to go to the trouble of registering only to have to unregisteer, lose your $200, only to sell something. Just accept the fact a registered lower is generally what people do on a permanent basis.

So no..... don't sell a registered lower.... but if you must, there are methods to have it meet all the necessary legal criteria to allow you to do by getting it off the books.

If you decide to sell it other than and SBR, it will have to be removed from the registry. I don't disagree what would you do that for.

To the casual reader here that may have an interest in SBR ownership, or maybe is an owner, he could be mislead reading some of the "opinions" that have been stated in this thread.

[tb-av]

I think this thread took a couple different directions. From what one person could do while retaining his possession, to "then why is this Lower Only NFA, but yes....

Extra clarity never hurts.

I guess I was reading Eurodriver's comments in the context of a person retaining possession and making those "temporary" changes.

I think that is where the disconnect is. Yes, it is an NFA item according to the registry, the only thing that really matters.

Yes, when I say it's no longer NFA, that is trying to get across how the BATF speaks. If it has a 16" barrel they will say it's not an NFA restricted firearm. It would still be BATF registered. The point I was trying to make was let's say you "temporarily" convert your registered SBR into a pistol. You hold it up in front of the BATF guy and he will say that configuration does not fall under the NFA definitions. HOWEVER.... you registered it so you can't sell it as a pistol unless you were to un-register it. You COULD however take it around town and it would be a Pistol.

.... and that's just how the BATF speaks. But yes, everyone should be aware of the gravity of registering an SBR because that's always tethered and has to be respected or removed. It's the only way. There is no gray area. It's pretty much an on/off switch. https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...t-nfa-division

Yes, I see how someone could misunderstand that concept. The hardware can be made to be whatever you need more or less but you still have to respect the paper trail tied to it as well. You have to be mindful of defined NFA hardware configurations and BATF paperwork. While it's all one big thing you kinda have to think of it as hardware and software due to the nature of the AR and how people like to swap things around. Both pieces are equally important.

Like I said I think we got into too many topics. What an individual can do, what can be sold as what ( NFA or Not ).

I think Eurodriver's last sentence should have been no BATF notification unless you want to transfer it. But that brings you back to ... who would want to sell a registered weapon as a Title 1?

That's how I read it. You as an owner can make lots of temporary changes with no BATF notice but if you go to transfer it, you need to notify BATF. But yeah... it could be mis-read. As well my "non-NFA items" . The fact it's registered anything you do will be NFA item but certain hardware configurations simply don't fall into NFA specs. OTHER than the fact it has NFA/BATF paperwork tied to it.

[Eurodriver]

Eurodriver is saying exactly that.
That in red is simply not true. I will repeat what I said previously, you cannot unilaterally remove an SBR from the registry simply by removing the short upper. That is a fact, not some pie in the sky "loophole" that these geniuses think they can fiddle with. While he tags on the "meets the criteria" on the end in parenthesis, what does that even mean? Exactly what "criteria" and for what exactly is it being met? Very vague.

I think that is where the disconnect is. Yes, it is an NFA item according to the registry, the only thing that really matters. Sure, you can swap uppers, but that is only temporary in nature according to ATF, and if push comes to shove, it is an NFA item until the status is changed. I will offer the example one more time, my examiner looks at my A&D, and there is an SBR in there, he/she doesn't give a shit if there is an upper on it or not. It is an NFA item and will be treated as such.

You want to hire an attorney and argue this crap in court, your interpretation of what a gov't manual says?

If you decide to sell it other than and SBR, it will have to be removed from the registry. I don't disagree what would you do that for.

To the casual reader here that may have an interest in SBR ownership, or maybe is an owner, he could be mislead reading some of the "opinions" that have been stated in this thread.

I never said it gets removed from the registry. I implied that whether it is in the registry or not does not make it a short barreled rifle for arrest purposes. (I.E. You cannot be arrested for having an short barreled rifle if the rifle you have does not have a short barrel.)

Fact: A rifle with a barrel >16" (or no barrel at all) is not a short barreled rifle. Period. End of story.

There will be no attorney to argue anything for in court because it will be a very simple process. (Actually, it would be a very complicated process, because for the ATF to even get involved in an ordinary person's life you'd really have to have made quite a few very bad decisions completely outside the realm of the NFA in the first place)

This will never happen:

Magical ATF agent "Hey Unsuspecting Citizen! We see that you're using this rifle with a 16" barrel. Was that at one time registered as an SBR? Yeah? Do you have paperwork? No? Ok we're going to arrest you for having an illegal SBR"

Unsuspecting citizen: "But how, it has a 16" Barrel?"

Magical ATF Agent: "You listened to some guy on the internet and he doesn't know what he's talking about. Sorry. You're going away tough guy.

I am not an SOT. The BATFE isn't looking over my A&D, because I don't have one. Yes, an SBR you bought is registered to you under the NFA. No one is saying it isn't. Even if you wrote a letter to the BATFE, and told them it was no longer an SBR it would still be in the registry when they acknowledged your letter.

What I'm arguing is that if someone saw me on the street with that lower and a 16" barrel I could not be charged with having an unregistered short barreled rifle. Nor could I be charged with selling/transferring an SBR if the rifle I sold does not have a short barrel. People do this all the time. They take pistols that they made into SBRs and openly sell them as pistols again on websites like this an ARFCOM. I know that isn't evidence of legality, but I'd like to see someone try and prosecute a person for having a rifle with a barrel >16" or a "pistol" configuration as an illegal SBR.

[Tx_Aggie]

I never said it gets removed from the registry. I implied that whether it is in the registry or not does not make it a short barreled rifle for arrest purposes. (I.E. You cannot be arrested for having an short barreled rifle if the rifle you have does not have a short barrel.)

Fact: A rifle with a barrel >16" (or no barrel at all) is not a short barreled rifle. Period. End of story.

There will be no attorney to argue anything for in court because it will be a very simple process. (Actually, it would be a very complicated process, because for the ATF to even get involved in an ordinary person's life you'd really have to have made quite a few very bad decisions completely outside the realm of the NFA in the first place)

This will never happen:

Magical ATF agent "Hey Unsuspecting Citizen! We see that you're using this rifle with a 16" barrel. Was that at one time registered as an SBR? Yeah? Do you have paperwork? No? Ok we're going to arrest you for having an illegal SBR"

Unsuspecting citizen: "But how, it has a 16" Barrel?"

Magical ATF Agent: "You listened to some guy on the internet and he doesn't know what he's talking about. Sorry. You're going away tough guy.

I am not an SOT. The BATFE isn't looking over my A&D, because I don't have one. Yes, an SBR you bought is registered to you under the NFA. No one is saying it isn't. Even if you wrote a letter to the BATFE, and told them it was no longer an SBR it would still be in the registry when they acknowledged your letter.

What I'm arguing is that if someone saw me on the street with that lower and a 16" barrel I could not be charged with having an unregistered short barreled rifle. Nor could I be charged with selling/transferring an SBR if the rifle I sold does not have a short barrel. People do this all the time. They take pistols that they made into SBRs and openly sell them as pistols again on websites like this an ARFCOM. I know that isn't evidence of legality, but I'd like to see someone try and prosecute a person for having a rifle with a barrel >16" or a "pistol" configuration as an illegal SBR.

So say something unfortunate happens and ATF shows to see all of the items registered to you/your trust and you've sold an SBR off to someone as a Title 1 firearm.

You're saying they'll happily accept that and go on about their merry way?

Granted a guy would likely have to already have done something to draw ATF's attention, as they have better things to do than to go around like a bunch of Karens picking on every citizen who ever bought or manufactured an SBR.

It still seems like the person tied to the registry would be expected to inform ATF of the change in the item's status.

Again, I've managed an SOT and am familiar with that side of it, but don't claim to be an expert. We made a habit of referring guys to an attorney who practices NFA law when these sorts of questions came up.

[juliet9]

There is a lot you said, and I will net it out.

I don't disagree that the ATF isn't generally looking over john q public's shoulder, and neither is local LE.

But, that word again, and using similar examples, let's say you were shooting on private property without permission and the owner calls the cops. You have a 16" barrel on a registered SBR receiver, and the LE has a passing knowledge of NFA, or even is just a gun guy and notices the engraving beyond the Colt, BCM, etc. factory markings, and it isn't your name. Guess what, he makes a few calls and finds out the receiver is an NFA item, he absolutely could arrest you for being in possession of a registered NFA item with no paperwork. You can explain to him all you want that it has a 16" barrel on it and he won't give a shit. ATF told him it is in the registry in John Smith's name and you ain't John Smith.

If people are selling registered SBR lower receivers on ARFCOM or anywhere, that are still registered as such, and think they can legally sell them with no transfer tax w/o changing the status, they are breaking the law. I can't say this enough, TEMPORARY, is the operative word. breath it, sleep it, live it.

Everyone needs to forget this crap of what length upper is on the weapon, and simply consider it what it is, an SBR until the status is changed in the registry. People are reading way too much into 2.5 of the handbook.

You mention the AR pistol thing. I could be wrong, but I think it is on borrowed time, as we all know the "braces" are stocks. I know it has been ruled on, but that can change real easily. You get an anti-gun administration in office, or a liberal USSC, watch out.

What are the chances that ATF or anyone really has the time to mess with something that is really not that big of a deal to most? Pretty slim, until some jerk off goes and shoots up some place with an 11.5" AR that is unregistered, or a pistol, hell, even if registered. Then "conceal-ability" with be the new hot button and you will see a huge backlash, cuz an 11.5" upper can do more damage than a 16" upper, right?

[Bret]

You mention the AR pistol thing. I could be wrong, but I think it is on borrowed time, as we all know the "braces" are stocks. I know it has been ruled on, but that can change real easily. You get an anti-gun administration in office, or a liberal USSC, watch out.

An anti-gun administration approved the braces in the first place. I didn't agree with that administration on much of anything, but I do agree that they got that one right. For me it illustrates that laws written almost 100 years ago don't always work with modern technology. Of course if one assumes that they are equivalent to stocks, then it illustrates that the SBR portion of the NFA is stupid because there has been no increase in crime associated with the proliferation of braced pistols. If another administration does try to change it, then there will be a heck of a court fight. There are likely millions of braces at this point.