The One Gun Solution (GP Carbine) - Reality?

[Core781]

...I think some here would be hard pressed to find a rifle that hasn't changed in 6 months.

I attended a high volume fire training event prior to the pandemic and there were guys with $10,000 worth of kit and they couldn’t shoot worth bubblegum. Their carbines were not the practical weakness: they were.

[Core781]

Why the **** would I get in a gunfight at 800m with someone that has an SPR? How the **** am I even getting in a gunfight at 800m? You like pistols and MP5s for CQB but are trying to give lessons on terminal ballistics?

You are approaching stupid.

[Eurodriver]

I attended a high volume fire training event prior to the pandemic and there were guys with $10,000 worth of kit and they couldn’t shoot worth bubblegum. Their carbines were not the practical weakness: they were.

Where

[Eurodriver]

Why the **** would I get in a gunfight at 800m with someone that has an SPR? How the **** am I even getting in a gunfight at 800m? You like pistols and MP5s for CQB but are trying to give lessons on terminal ballistics?

What happens if your enemy is at 1 million “yards”?

What will you do then? Especially if your optic doesn’t work in “yards”!!!!

[romanowe]

You are approaching stupid.

I think it’s valid point. I don’t want to engage targets at that range.

[docsherm]

I understand military cartridges and their practical uses and how they are applied. If you want to drop your muzzle velocity 80fps to have a two inch shorter barrel knock yourself out.Your lack of understanding in practical use is lacking. The shorter the barrel in 5.56N requires more specialized cartridges to get them to shoot accurately at distance and produce good vascular damage. Given the question: I recommend a 14.5”+ barrel for those reasons. And good LPVO glass.

Early in my service the Marines were using RECCE rifles for this reason. They were shooting 62g and 55g. Sure you can stockpile MKxxx ammo or load it yourself. But will it be available in the long term? And even if you have two cartridge types in your kit, you’ll need to know how to use them effectively. You’re going to die if you engage a threat at 600 meters plus with that setup: is that okay with you? Maybe it’s not an issue in your area: no open country?? With a RECCE carbine you will have a fighting chance against an SPR or hunting rifle: and they are handy in most urban spaces. You’ll want a pistol for those small spaces. There is a reason why a division has snipers, LMG, and various specialty loadouts. I used to do VBSS on the high seas, and we used MP5s, we had breachers with shotguns, and overwatch. I was trained in all positions and led a SAT team for several years. The Navy switched to MK18s. I still prefer MP5 for ship spaces but the MK18 is superior at medium ranges.

As a civilian you need to be practical. You can cite all the theoretical data you want but what happens to your one size fits all 12.5” carbine you got 55g/62g and your enemy is at 800 meters? Theories aside.

You are all over the place. I have actually used used both MK262 and regular 62gr ammo out of a 12.5 in Afghanistan out to 400 meters. No issues at all.

What are you trying to say? Are you saying that the 12.5 is too short to do or that with normal ammo?

[Core781]

Where

New Hampshire USA

[Core781]

You are all over the place. I have actually used used both MK262 and regular 62gr ammo out of a 12.5 in Afghanistan out to 400 meters. No issues at all.

What are you trying to say? Are you saying that the 12.5 is too short to do or that with normal ammo?

I would say the 12.5” is too short for a one carbine solution. I would lean towards 14.5-16” up to 18”. How far would you engage a threat with the 12.5” with MK262? How far would you engage a threat with 55g cartridges if that’s all you had access to? You would be better served with a 14.5-18” barrel.

The reality is we do not have the luxury to predict when, where, and at what distance a threat may present itself. The 10-12.5” is versatile but not ideal upper for a one carbine solution. That’s my point.

[Core781]

I think it’s valid point. I don’t want to engage targets at that range.

You wouldn’t be able to with the 12.5” thats my point. The deficiency is compounded by lack of access to MKxxx ammo.

[Ironman8]

I understand military cartridges and their practical uses and how they are applied. If you want to drop your muzzle velocity 80fps to have a two inch shorter barrel knock yourself out.Your lack of understanding in practical use is lacking. The shorter the barrel in 5.56N requires more specialized cartridges to get them to shoot accurately at distance and produce good vascular damage. Given the question: I recommend a 14.5”+ barrel for those reasons. And good LPVO glass.

Early in my service the Marines were using RECCE rifles for this reason. They were shooting 62g and 55g. Sure you can stockpile MKxxx ammo or load it yourself. But will it be available in the long term? And even if you have two cartridge types in your kit, you’ll need to know how to use them effectively. You’re going to die if you engage a threat at 600 meters plus with that setup: is that okay with you? Maybe it’s not an issue in your area: no open country?? With a RECCE carbine you will have a fighting chance against an SPR or hunting rifle: and they are handy in most urban spaces. You’ll want a pistol for those small spaces. There is a reason why a division has snipers, LMG, and various specialty loadouts. I used to do VBSS on the high seas, and we used MP5s, we had breachers with shotguns, and overwatch. I was trained in all positions and led a SAT team for several years. The Navy switched to MK18s. I still prefer MP5 for ship spaces but the MK18 is superior at medium ranges.

As a civilian you need to be practical. You can cite all the theoretical data you want but what happens to your one size fits all 12.5” carbine you got 55g/62g and your enemy is at 800 meters? Theories aside.

If we’re talking practical use, then throw a suppressor on the end of that 14.5 and tell me how practical that is inside a structure. With a 6” suppressor on a 12.5”, it’s about an inch longer than an unsuppressed 16”. It’s finding the right balance of a short barrel + suppressor that still offers acceptable external/terminal ballistics AND can be used effectively indoors and out, day or night.

Based on your posts, I can tell you missed the parameters I listed in the OP on the first post:

Parameters for this carbine:
1) 0-400 capable
2) Day and Night capable
3) Stay light enough to be easily carried in the field

This whole quest really began with Kyle Defoor several years ago talking about his opinion of the capability of the 5.56 AR platform. Which he says is 0-400. Past that range, he said he wants a bigger caliber. 11.5” or 12.5” both fit this role pretty well. I happen to like the 12.5” better based on data and personal experience shooting this type of platform for the last 3-4 years.

For you to make the 800 “yard” argument is just asinine for this discussion. There’s nothing reliable about 5.56 at 800 yds whether you’re talking 12.5, 14.5, or 18 when it comes to external or terminal ballistics, regardless of cartridge used. Nothing expands or fragments at that range and hit percentage is WAY down compared to 400yds.