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Thread: WACO - The Netflix Series...WOW

  1. #1
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    WACO - The Netflix Series...WOW

    I had serious reservations about this one, especially having seen the hatchet job that was "In the Line of Duty: Ambush in Waco."

    Now I'm no fan of Koresh, I think he was a deluded sociopath and religious predator that victimized naive true believers with his knowledge of the bible and his ability to interpret it in ways that benefited him and manipulated others. Of course his victims were partially to blame having surrendered control of themselves to the point that husbands were no longer able to maintain marriages with their wives and had to surrender them to Koresh.

    I also think Koresh was a pedophile who believed he was entitled to anyone in his group, "because God revealed the plan to him", including 14 year old girls. Most of us would consider that a shitty plan, especially in light of how it all turned out. But Stockholm syndrome is a real thing and if you add religion the next thing you know everyone is making kool aid.

    That said, the only people worse were ATF who sought to use the daylight raid as justification for demonizing assault weapons and the "fanatics who build arsenals" and the FBI HRT which was fresh off a rescue attempt where a man's son and wife were killed by law enforcement because he refused to become a confidential informant.

    This series is amazingly "fair", and maybe too fair IMO. It dramatically humanizes Koresh in a way that you understand why he has "followers" and more importantly shows nearly every blunder, misstep and deliberate action that took things from bad to worse to more horrible than one can imagine.

    Two books were used as sources:

    Stalling for Time: My Life as an FBI Hostage Negotiator by Gary Noesner - Clearly this book was the most damning because it was "one of their own" and he was there for most of the bad ideas.

    A Place Called Waco by David Thibodeau & Leon Whiteson - This was basically a survivor account and lets us know "more or less" what was going on inside. Thibodeau was a recent arrival and really couldn't be considered a "true believer" as he had little understanding of religion when he met the Davidians.

    I can somewhat forgive the approach to Koresh as a "human" as he had already been presented as the devil in the 1993 "hit piece" and that film's writer, Phil Penningroth, has since disowned his screenplay as pro-ATF "propaganda."

    And if you've seen any of the attempts at unbiased documentaries on the subject since then, you already know how deep the rabbit holes can run.

    What really sets this series apart is coherence. You are given events inside and outside in a chronological order and you get to know most of the people involved, both inside and outside including the kind of person they are, what they are hoping to achieve and why they are doing what they do.

    Better than anything else I've see, it really does present the events and let the chips fall where they may.

    It is interesting that it took almost 30 years for something like this to come to light, especially in such a mainstream way and on a network that typically isn't sensitive to the plight of "religious extremists with guns."

    Word of warning, it can be hard to watch. But probably everyone does need to see it, if for no other reason than to remember our government is also capable of a Tienanmen Square type event from time to time.

    I still remember watching the "standoff" on the nightly news about the religious kook who thought he was rock n roll Jesus and I also remember watching the assault live as it happened.

    I'm surprised by some of the people who actually participated, but I guess from Hollywoods perspective the "bad guy" is the US government so probably they are ok with it. And as much as I hate to admit it, people I mostly despise like Leguizamo turned in honest portrayals.

    That said, I'm standing by for wicked backlash about the tv series that promotes religious kooks who sexually abuse their children as "victims."
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

    كافر

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    In the end it was first degree murder, the Davidians could not be allowed to survive to tell their side of the story so they were wacked by the Feds. The thermal camera footage from the back of the house where they were shooting anyone trying to escape the fire is telling.

    A timely reminder of what is in store for us "normals" if DemComs are allowed to have their way.
    Last edited by mack7.62; 04-20-20 at 06:56.
    “The Trump Doctrine is ‘We’re America, Bitch.’ That’s the Trump Doctrine.”

    "He is free to evade reality, he is free to unfocus his mind and stumble blindly down any road he pleases, but not free to avoid the abyss he refuses to see."

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    Is this the one that was on cable television? Paramount network iirc. If so, it’s not a ‘Netflix series’. Just trying to differentiate. The Paramount series was very good and imo very well acted.
    Fun fact, production company is listed as The Weinstein Company.

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    The ATF had multiple chances to arrest Koresh outside of the compound, but they chose publicity over the safety of the victims.
    A person who is not inwardly prepared for the use of violence against him is always weaker than the person committing the violence. - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

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    Several years ago I took an FBI hostage negotiation course that was taught by one of the FBI negotiators at Waco. He had really good insight and viewed the whole situation as regrettable as Koresh could have easily been arrested at the Whataburger he frequented. Yes, Koresh was a piece of garbage but all those people at the compound did not have to die.
    Psalm 34:19

    To argue with a person who renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. ~ Thomas Paine

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    Really liking the series. It is from 2018, but I, like a lot of us I presume, am watching for the first time. I've watched through 4 out of 6 episodes. It really tries to show us what life and "innocence" must have been like inside the compound leading up to the stand off. Avoidable, most probably. If it is accurate then I don't think he really ever meant any harm. But, the guy was indeed a lunatic and had people brainwashed. He broke polygamy and statutory rape laws for sure, and then his gun and explosive stock piling would make any one or any agency for that matter want to bring this guy down. He was only stock piling that stuff because he humanly knew that what he was doing was going to cause that much controversy. He was a smart guy, I'll give him that.

    Now I'm watching the stand off that was massively televised when I was a kid and seeing many more broken laws and unjust behavior.

    If the story is all true about Lon Horiuchi; then I hope standards have changed since 1992 within the FBI for mistakes of breaking code and insubordination that grave.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn’t do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.”
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    My wife and I finished the series last night. Solid series. It does a good job of humanizing everyone, from Koresh and the Branch Davidians, to even the HRT commander. You get a feel for why everyone did what they did, and it helps you understand the situation better. The end result is that the "crazy religious cult" anything that has been floating around since '93 really doesn't hold as much water as it once did, and the complete disdain the FBI/ATF had for anyone who resisted them.

    Couple thoughts, not really important, but maybe worth sharing:

    Koresh's theology/eschatology, as it was presented in the series, was awful, and showed extensive knowledge of the Bible, but little understanding. It's a shame that all his energy and drive couldn't have been better focused. The show presented him as a true believer in what he spouted if a little unhinged. I also got the feeling that he genuinely wanted to help people, and was great at reading them. Be very curious as to how this portray stacks up to the opinions of those who knew the man.

    It was interesting to see how the Feds used the weapon, drug, pedophilia charges, and kooky religious beliefs against him. He was presented as "bad guy" due to these, and thus the murderous level of force brought against him was justified. If you add in racism, these are still the go-to charges used to discredit someone.

    It's a damn shame the ATF wasn't abolished after this, as they talked about during the first episode.

    It's also a shame that no outside force, be it the local sheriff, Texas Rangers, or a citizens' militia didn't show up to relieve the siege. The Feds may have carried out the raid, but the country allowed it to happen.

    I was disappointed that the doors, which were mentioned in the series, were not covered in the epilogue. Really want to know how the FBI managed to lose one, but not the other, and the one they lost just happened to be the one that everyone acknowledged would prove who started shooting first.

    If anything, the series presents the Branch Davidians as being too meek and docile. After the initial engagement with the ATF, no one seemed willing to fight back. There were several parts where this would have been justified, IMO. Be really curious how frequently there was discussions of more violent reactions (like shooting out the speakers used for the PsyOps campaign) or if it went down the way it was presented.
    ...they should have seen that arms in their citizens' hands could not make them tyrants, but that evil orders of government make a city tyrannize. Since they had a good government, they did not have to fear their own arms.
    --Niccolo Machiavelli, Art of War

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    The cover up was massive starting on day one, when ATF pulled up in their stock trailers David stepped outside to talk to them, not the move of someone planning to resist. Most creditable theory is one of the ATF goons jumped out of the trailer with his finger on the trigger of his unsafed MP5 and had a ND which started the shebang. Also ATF was using those PMC ring airfoil bullets which left a very distinctive wound which is why the autopsy and medical reports of the ATF agents cannot be found as there was at least some blue on blue. Then after it was all over somehow the refrigerated truck storing the remains of the Davidians got "accidentally" unplugged allowing the bodies to decompose so a forensic examination was not carried out. The biggest scandal to me after the botched raid was the fact that they had microphones installed and were listening to what was going on in the house, David was on the verge of being talked out. That and the fact that Delta Force "observers" were on site are what tend to make me lean towards the belief the HRT got the final result they wanted.

    Also abut the Texas Rangers or local Sheriff stepping in, not going to happen with the POS Governor Demorat Anne Richards in charge. The Ruby Ridge and Waco fiasco both happened with Demorats in charge.
    “The Trump Doctrine is ‘We’re America, Bitch.’ That’s the Trump Doctrine.”

    "He is free to evade reality, he is free to unfocus his mind and stumble blindly down any road he pleases, but not free to avoid the abyss he refuses to see."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha-17 View Post
    It was interesting to see how the Feds used the weapon, drug, pedophilia charges, and kooky religious beliefs against him. He was presented as "bad guy" due to these, and thus the murderous level of force brought against him was justified. If you add in racism, these are still the go-to charges used to discredit someone.
    Am I experiencing the Mandela effect or wasn’t there a scandal around that time about the - well, let’s just say one, agency planting kiddie stuff to enhance cooperation ?

  10. #10
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    $30 per year, $500 SOT payment, no background check required and he would have had an FFL/SOT and everything would have been legal.

    Stupid is as stupid does.

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