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Thread: 9mm 124 +P v 147 v 300BLK 190gr

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by HKGuns View Post
    You don't say what you are shooting, but some of the Euro pistols are designed to shoot 124 grain bullets and you'll most likely see the best reliability using the round it was designed to shoot. That being said, I own a bunch of Euro pistols and while I don't shoot 147gr a ton, I've never ran into a reliability issue. Just something to be aware of at least.

    I usually hand load and reserve 147gr for subsonic applications and use 124gr HP's for self defense rounds. I like the higher velocity of the 124's to ensure reliable expansion.

    YMMV IMBCFOS
    You're right, I forgot to include specific platforms.

    SIG MPX 4.5" (9mm)
    SIG Rattler 5.5" (300BLK)
    GLOCK(s) (9mm)

    You don't think 147's are as reliable with expansion as a 124 +P?


    Quote Originally Posted by yoni View Post
    I am not a fan of a 5.5" barrel rifle in 300 blk using subsonic ammo.

    I fail to see what it give you, other than a poor substitute for a PCC.

    I have a B&T TP9, that also has a 5.5" barrel, but due to design it is even shorter than the Rattler. It has magazines that take up less storage space than your rifle magazines. I really like in concept the Leigh Defense round in 9mm a 65 grain bullet going at least 1800fps.

    With a rifle you can get down so short that you lose what made a rifle a superior tool to begin with.
    If the 300blk subsonic round was in fact expanding at those low velocities, would it not be better to sling 190gr rifle rounds at a target v 147's? Honest question because I don't know.

    I've always been a fan of the TP9. Never used one but if they had something like that accepting Glock mags, I'd be all over it haha. Doesn't B&T say not to use any suppressor other than their specific can with that system? Not opposed to that necessarily; just not sure if I want to commit to that system with a tax stamp.

    If those expanding 190's were in fact performing better terminally compared to a 147 inside of those CQB distances; then popping that mag of 110VMAX in outside of that is no biggie.


    Quote Originally Posted by MegademiC View Post
    1. The +p is a little better for the 124gr, but not the 147, so you can skip the +p when using the 147gr.

    2. For sd/hd, the benefits vs noise of supersonics is well worth the trade-off. I don’t understand why you find supersonic acceptable for 9mm, but not 300blk. If you are popping pests in the back yard, sure, go subsonic. But why limit terminal performance for no real benefit in a life/death situation? The silencer is going to make a huge difference even with supers.
    I see what you're saying. Allow me to clarify, I'd only consider subsonic acceptable for 300blk if they were loads designed to expand at those low velocities like the SUB-X and Lehigh Defense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Todd.K View Post
    If you want quiet + known terminal performance, PCC with 147gr would be my choice.

    147gr is subsonic in 9mm because that is the max velocity at normal pressure. It's not downloaded to be subsonic. All the 147gr bullets are designed to function at that velocity, so you are not giving up any terminal performance.

    124gr +P has a noticeably sharper recoil in a pistol for me, so I just stick to 147gr in all my 9mm. But I wouldn't feel any need to dump good quality 124gr if I had it.
    I appreciate that. This may seem like dumb question but i'm confused as to what the point of a 124 +P round is when everyone who has replied seems to essentialyl say there aren't really added benefits to the increase in felt recoil.

  2. #12
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    I don't think that given the same shot placement with a subsonic 190 grain 300blk V a 147 grain 9mm the person on the receiving end is going to know the difference.

    I always come back to a very basic question, what is the mission?

    We must let mission dictate what we carry and no emotions.

    Covert urban mission, where an extremely long shot will be 100 meters. Then I tend to favor a small sized PCC i.e. MP5k, TP9, mini Uzi. Less muzzle blast, easier to carry spare mags due to smaller sized. I can carry 2 spare mags for PCC in my front pants pocket, where 1 mag for a rifle might not fit.

    I was on the receiving end of an ambush one night, and we were trapped in the kill zone in a vehicle. No front, no back and no leaving the vehicle behind and getting out on foot. We had to suck it up and shoot out of the car we were in, the car gave us some protection against the stones, concrete blocks and molotov cocktails that were being thrown at us. I had a micro Uzi, which allowed me to move inside the car, where if I had brought a Colt commando that night I wouldn't be typing this. I went through either 14 or 17 32 round mags that night before a QRF got to us. I was on my next to last mag.

    Regarding the round for 9mm, I currently have given into emotion and I am carrying 124 +P ammo.

    Which as soon as I can get to the range I will bring 147 grain and get to know it again.

    Why because the truth is, the ammo today due to the criteria of the FBI is all in the same room as far as performance. It is that close it has gone from being in the same ball park to now I really believe all handgun ammo is in the same room. It all performs less than 10% difference in terms of penetration and expansion. We used to have to carry 9mm ball, we made it work and we killed terrorist.

    So softer shooting ammo means better shot to shot times and more accuracy. Things that will win pistol fights.

    Our biggest problem with these subjects is our emotions.

    It looks cool, it must be good.

    I used to carry either a full sized M16 set up for sniping, NF scope, bipod, free floating rail, etc. Nobody would look at it nor me.

    I would also carry at time a mini or micro Uzi, it would stop people in their tracks.

    The small Uzi's were considered bad ass, oh sheeet, he must be something special, a killer of men.

    But the Uzi's were good to about 125 meters, the rifle out to 800, to say nothing of the difference in power.

    Pure emotions, on the part of people who had seen the different guns.

    Mission is all that matters.

    So let me show using the 2 guns above mission, even if I was off duty.

    The Uzi's were used if I was going to be in a city, going to a party or what ever. If we went to a wedding at night I wanted something I could carry covert, because to leave it in the jeep would have cost me big time if it got stolen. So they went into a shoulder carry bag, think Euro trash style, when I sat down the strap would get wrapped around my ankle so I could never forget it.

    My M16, I would take it if we were going on a family hike in the country, because I might need to reach out and touch someone. Which did happen one when I took my kids hiking.

    So to close, remember mission dictates .

  3. #13
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    The 8"-9" 300 BLK is both an MP5SD and a MK18, with just a mag change from subs to super. It can also be a loud PDW with rifle terminal performance.

    But without seeing some testing, I can't say I expect more than 9mm ball performance from subsonic 300 BLK.

    The terminal performance of HDY 110 is good. The reliability in 5.56 mags is not so good. Take a loaded mag and smack it on the front a few times, some of the rounds will slide forward because the OAL is so short. It's probably fine for home defense, I've shot a bunch without any feeding problems on the range, but not for the field where gear is bounced around all day. I would choose blacktip for that.

    124gr and other weights are made because no ammo company wants to loose out on an agency purchase that specifies something other than 147gr. Earlier HP designs expanded better at higher velocity, so some people still prefer that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd.K View Post
    The 8"-9" 300 BLK is both an MP5SD and a MK18, with just a mag change from subs to super. It can also be a loud PDW with rifle terminal performance.
    This is the perfect use for the 300blk.

    My problem is when you go into a smaller package than this. When you drop down to a 5" barrel, you are better off with a MP5k. mini Uzi, B&T TP9

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar View Post
    You're right, I forgot to include specific platforms.

    SIG MPX 4.5" (9mm)
    SIG Rattler 5.5" (300BLK)
    GLOCK(s) (9mm)

    You don't think 147's are as reliable with expansion as a 124 +P?




    If the 300blk subsonic round was in fact expanding at those low velocities, would it not be better to sling 190gr rifle rounds at a target v 147's? Honest question because I don't know.

    I've always been a fan of the TP9. Never used one but if they had something like that accepting Glock mags, I'd be all over it haha. Doesn't B&T say not to use any suppressor other than their specific can with that system? Not opposed to that necessarily; just not sure if I want to commit to that system with a tax stamp.

    If those expanding 190's were in fact performing better terminally compared to a 147 inside of those CQB distances; then popping that mag of 110VMAX in outside of that is no biggie.




    I see what you're saying. Allow me to clarify, I'd only consider subsonic acceptable for 300blk if they were loads designed to expand at those low velocities like the SUB-X and Lehigh Defense.




    I appreciate that. This may seem like dumb question but i'm confused as to what the point of a 124 +P round is when everyone who has replied seems to essentialyl say there aren't really added benefits to the increase in felt recoil.
    Many of us suffer from being old, we remember old bullet technology, where velocity was king.
    Today with todays technology we don't need to push to those velocities.

    I want to look at the the Leigh defense 65grain round, because I think it might be something very special.

    Other than this special round, today I think with my brain that the 124 grn or 147 grn is the better choice with neither being +P.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar View Post

    I see what you're saying. Allow me to clarify, I'd only consider subsonic acceptable for 300blk if they were loads designed to expand at those low velocities like the SUB-X and Lehigh Defense.
    A pcc with 124gr is going to be similar in size and sound to a 300blk with supers, so the obvious choice would be the rifle which gives you rifle terminal performance.

    The only benefits to 9mm would be mag/ammo simplicity, and size if you go to something with the mag in the grip, or a super short barrel, in which case you need to evaluate what your size requirements are.

    Running subs in 300blk is basically an oversized pcc. There are some rounds that look to offer good 300blk subsonic performance, but its still closer to pistol ballistics, and a niche product. I also havent seen professonal tests of these rounds yet, but they definitely have decent potential, for what they are.
    Last edited by MegademiC; 04-22-20 at 07:40.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd.K View Post
    The 8"-9" 300 BLK is both an MP5SD and a MK18, with just a mag change from subs to super. It can also be a loud PDW with rifle terminal performance.

    But without seeing some testing, I can't say I expect more than 9mm ball performance from subsonic 300 BLK.

    The terminal performance of HDY 110 is good. The reliability in 5.56 mags is not so good. Take a loaded mag and smack it on the front a few times, some of the rounds will slide forward because the OAL is so short. It's probably fine for home defense, I've shot a bunch without any feeding problems on the range, but not for the field where gear is bounced around all day. I would choose blacktip for that.

    124gr and other weights are made because no ammo company wants to loose out on an agency purchase that specifies something other than 147gr. Earlier HP designs expanded better at higher velocity, so some people still prefer that.
    1) Yeah, the 300 Blackout is kind of that jack of all trades master of none. Though all things equal, I'd rather have an 8"-9" 300BLK throwing quality 30 cal down rage than a MK18.

    2) I'm in the same boat which is in part why I originally posted; I was hoping someone out here might have some real experience with SUB-X or even better, SUB-X through a Rattler and Sandman K.

    3) I have noticed the OAL when I was jamming mags and that did raise some concern. Are there any documented reliability issues running this ammo? Is "black tip" the barnes 110 vortx?

    4) That makes sense. So the mentality of agencies only authorizing 124 +P type ammo comes from an outdated mindset? Todays 147's have no issues with expansion at lower velocities?

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoni View Post
    This is the perfect use for the 300blk.

    My problem is when you go into a smaller package than this. When you drop down to a 5" barrel, you are better off with a MP5k. mini Uzi, B&T TP9
    Can you explain why you feel Sig Rattler 5.5" < MP5k, Mini Uzi, TP9 etc? FYI, Side by side, the Rattler is about the same size as the MP5k.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegademiC View Post
    A pcc with 124gr is going to be similar in size and sound to a 300blk with supers, so the obvious choice would be the rifle which gives you rifle terminal performance.

    The only benefits to 9mm would be mag/ammo simplicity, and size if you go to something with the mag in the grip, or a super short barrel, in which case you need to evaluate what your size requirements are.

    Running subs in 300blk is basically an oversized pcc. There are some rounds that look to offer good 300blk subsonic performance, but its still closer to pistol ballistics, and a niche product. I also havent seen professonal tests of these rounds yet, but they definitely have decent potential, for what they are.
    Agreed. I think in most cases that I would opt to grab a sub gun, if all things were equal, i'd prefer to have a 5" gun spitting 30 cal rounds versus a 5" gun throwing nines.

    I half agree with your last statement about 300blk subs are an oversided pcc. I've seen testing that shows 300blk subs defeating soft armor due to sectional density. That can be a consideration when deciding on platform and caliber.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar View Post
    1) Yeah, the 300 Blackout is kind of that jack of all trades master of none. Though all things equal, I'd rather have an 8"-9" 300BLK throwing quality 30 cal down rage than a MK18.

    2) I'm in the same boat which is in part why I originally posted; I was hoping someone out here might have some real experience with SUB-X or even better, SUB-X through a Rattler and Sandman K.

    3) I have noticed the OAL when I was jamming mags and that did raise some concern. Are there any documented reliability issues running this ammo? Is "black tip" the barnes 110 vortx?

    4) That makes sense. So the mentality of agencies only authorizing 124 +P type ammo comes from an outdated mindset? Todays 147's have no issues with expansion at lower velocities?
    Yes the black tip is the Barnes 110 TTSX , or TAC-TX.

    That is what I run in my 300blk truck gun.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    The price of liberty is, always has been, and always will be blood: The person who is not willing to die for his liberty has already lost it to the first scoundrel who is willing to risk dying to violate that person's liberty! Are you free?
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