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Thread: 9mm 124 +P v 147 v 300BLK 190gr

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar View Post
    Can you explain why you feel Sig Rattler 5.5" < MP5k, Mini Uzi, TP9 etc? FYI, Side by side, the Rattler is about the same size as the MP5k.
    I think all you get with that length barrel and super 300blk rounds is a lot of blast and you really don't gain anything over a 9mm small sized PCC. Second just look at the size of the magazines, it will be easier to carry the 9mm mags over the 300 blk mags.

    I think a 8 inch barreled rifle in 300 blk or 7.62x 39 is the shortes that you can really go. I also think 10.5-11.5 is the smallest in 5.56. Now people will point out to me rounds that do ok in even shorted length barrels in 5.56, I know they exist. I just don't think they are as good a tool.
    Last edited by yoni; 04-22-20 at 15:22.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar View Post
    3) I have noticed the OAL when I was jamming mags and that did raise some concern. Are there any documented reliability issues running this ammo?
    Remington planned a huge push of ammo loaded with .308 dia AK 123gr bullets with the new caliber rollout. I shot a ton of it square range without problems doing testing. Then Rob_S took it to a class and had feeding problems. I replicated it by smacking some mags around as I described above. Remington pulled the ammo for a redesigned longer bullet, causing an ammo shortage as 300 BLK guns were starting to ship.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoni View Post
    ... just look at the size of the magazines, it will be easier to carry the 9mm mags over the 300 blk mags.
    When looking at an ultra small PDW, concealment is the implied priority. The amount of ammo you can conceal is easy for most of us to overlook. Thanks for sharing your perspective and experience on it.

  4. #24
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    300BLK specific magazines are HIGHLY recommended.

    We're not satisfied with the magazine feed performance of PMAG 556 or Lancer L5AWM mags with supers and especially not with subs.

    USGI actually work very well with supers and acceptably with subs.

    The PMAG 300B is excellent with all ammo we've tested.
    https://magpul.com/firearm-accessori...obal_color=118


    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar View Post

    3) I have noticed the OAL when I was jamming mags and that did raise some concern. Are there any documented reliability issues running this ammo? Is "black tip" the barnes 110 vortx?

    This is true, but only for the top performing 9mm loads such as HST and Gold Dot.

    For example, a 147 FMJ and a 124 FMJ both suck, while the HST versions are both great.

    Bullet construction is critical for terminal performance of pistol and subsonic 300BLK projectiles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sugar View Post

    4) That makes sense. So the mentality of agencies only authorizing 124 +P type ammo comes from an outdated mindset? Todays 147's have no issues with expansion at lower velocities?
    Black River Tactical
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint View Post
    300BLK specific magazines are HIGHLY recommended.

    We're not satisfied with the magazine feed performance of PMAG 556 or Lancer L5AWM mags with supers and especially not with subs.
    I arrived at the same conclusion on my own dime.

  6. #26
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    Sugar.
    As most have already spoken of, most of the quality 9mm's will do a pretty good job of expanding at most useful distances for that platform...
    I also have developed a respect for the .300 Blackout platform, which I have found useful beyond pistol engagement distances... As I'm sure you can attest the platform can help improve the shooter's accuracy potential over a pistol, and any number of sighting options can take that platform to distances beyond a pistol or sub-gun.
    Since the state I live in allows us to shoot deer with the .300 Blackout, and with some available permits, some hunters have also been permitted to take deer off of a small Airport with Deer problems. With a suppressor and those Hornady expanding bullets, a friend has taken every deer he has shot at... The group never even moves when the one drops... ( Although this is done with Hand-loads the projectile is the same ) It would be helpful to have an idea what the velocity is from your 5.5", ( so as to know the threshold for them to expand)
    I also loaded up some of the Lehigh Defense Subsonic maximum expansion ( 194 gr.) for a local P.D. that was doing some testing through windshield glass into baistic jel. ( they are currently adding this caliber to their patrol rifle program. The projectile opened up consistently and penetrated some 17-19" in their testing... This was done with a 10.5" barreled Ar platform, but the loads were developed for my 8.5" platform.... Out of my SBR they were loaded to run 1034fps, so I'm not sure what the velocity was from the test barreled 10.5' ...
    This might be the determining factor for your applications... can you find a source to either produce a cartridge or test the available ones on the market to see if they will expand at velocities from your barrel...?
    A very big positive, would be to have a suppressor, which could be a distinct advantage when you want to keep your signature reduced. ( if that is a concern )
    Another positive the .300 brings to the party, is with a change of a magazine you can defeat a number of type's of body armor. ( again dependent on velocity of your chosen barrel length )
    As some have mentioned, the Barnes Black tip 110 gr all copper round is right up there with the best, along side the Hornady offering 110 gr GMX load or Projectile... The Lehigh Defense 110 gr Controlled chaos might also be a consideration depending on how it performs from you barrel length. I push these from my 8.5" barrel at 2,234 very similar to the Hornady 110 gr GMX bullet... ( if I remember correctly the factory load from Hornady with the 110 gr GMX bullet was 100 fps slower from my barrel... This Lehigh Defense 110 gr Controlled Chaos was also tested in ballistic jell with unusual results... Unlike most projectiles, this one sheared off a number of petals within the first 3-4" traveling outward from the initial wound track, ( approximately 10-12" )potentially causing more damage than a single wound track... The base continued 22" ( more than sufficient ) ( aside note these are good for those thin people who often live in mountain regions since they shear off in the first several inches causing more damage than a single projectile can do )
    There will always be unknown's, no magic bullets, but to have a platform you are very familiar with and under adverse conditions it is like an extension of your anatomy, it comes down to reading your AO and the those who move within it...

  7. #27
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    Of those, I would say performance will be like a service caliber pistol round.

    The .300 will probably be more reliable from an AR than 9mm, with the option of supersonic loads.

    In my opinion that's the big benefit of .300. Wanna fire suppressed subsonic bullets from a "normal" AR using normal shaped AR mags? .300.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 223to45 View Post
    Yes the black tip is the Barnes 110 TTSX , or TAC-TX.

    That is what I run in my 300blk truck gun.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    Roger. I'll take a look. Thanks.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoni View Post
    I think all you get with that length barrel and super 300blk rounds is a lot of blast and you really don't gain anything over a 9mm small sized PCC. Second just look at the size of the magazines, it will be easier to carry the 9mm mags over the 300 blk mags.

    I think a 8 inch barreled rifle in 300 blk or 7.62x 39 is the shortes that you can really go. I also think 10.5-11.5 is the smallest in 5.56. Now people will point out to me rounds that do ok in even shorted length barrels in 5.56, I know they exist. I just don't think they are as good a tool.
    I think the Rattler, though it's only 5.5", is still in a different league when pushing duty quality supersonic 300BLK.

    I think a trend we've seen over the years is that we can't get wrapped around the "too short" axle. 20 some years ago, it was a hard pitch getting some salty Marine to drop is 20" M16A4/A2 for a 14.5" M4A1. Shoot, I remember when I got out of the MIL back in '13 and I got my first 16" barreled AR because I felt like anything shorter would leave me limited down the road. 2020 and now I'm issued a 10.3" MK18. The Rattler is fairly new to the scene and from what I understand, it was born of a very niche requirement. Similar requirements to what I purchased it for. No arguement that 9mm mags would be easier to carry than 300blk but that isn't really part of my requirements for why I purchased the Rattler. Not that you didn't already touch on advancements in modern ammunition for shorter barrels...

    Your response and input is appreciated.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd.K View Post
    Remington planned a huge push of ammo loaded with .308 dia AK 123gr bullets with the new caliber rollout. I shot a ton of it square range without problems doing testing. Then Rob_S took it to a class and had feeding problems. I replicated it by smacking some mags around as I described above. Remington pulled the ammo for a redesigned longer bullet, causing an ammo shortage as 300 BLK guns were starting to ship.
    Hmmm.... super bummer dude haha. That means I might have to replace 50 PMAGs that I've accrued for dedicated 300BLK use. I've never had any issues but if it's a well documented issues, i'm sure it's only a matter of time under the right conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd.K View Post
    When looking at an ultra small PDW, concealment is the implied priority. The amount of ammo you can conceal is easy for most of us to overlook. Thanks for sharing your perspective and experience on it.
    In some cases sure but for me, shorter is a big objective of mine with most of my setups. I like the ability to do ENOUGH with less. I'd trade concealment of my magazines for a rifle cartridge in a PDW package when operating in overt conditions for the simple fact that PDW offer mobility. I can work inside of a vehicle or tight door ways without having to give up control much easier with a Rattler + Sandman K than I can with a MK18 + can.

    Where my original question comes into play is where I'm trying to figure out whether I opt for a sub gun in 147gr 9mm (since we've already determined 147 > 124 +P) or a Rattler in 300blk 190gr SUB-X. Both platforms are similar in size and the question is just which one is going to perform better ballistically.

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