Ahmaud Arbery Shooting

[Esq.]

First off their property and loved ones were not being threatened. The property Mr. Arbery was walking through was an unfinished home that was not occupied by the defendants, or anybody for that matter. I've walked through homes under construction many times to check things out. Does that give some vigilante retard the right to chase me down with his pickup and hold me against my will at gunpoint?

Bottom line, it wasn't their property. Any argument about the defendants defending their property/belongings is null and void. Secondly, they had zero cause to believe he took anything from that construction sight. Even if he took something, Mr. Arbery posed no threat to them as he was jogging away from them. They had zero cause to run him down, and detain him at gunpoint. Name the law, clause, or statute that gives these idiots the go ahead to do what they did. Please link to it for the world to see.

Using your logic we should all be able to hunt down and shoot anybody that steps foot on our neighbors lawn, because hey they MIGHT have done something.

Is English your first language? I ask because you are interpreting what I have said very strangely. First, show me exactly where I have specifically defended the two people inolved here or how they did things in any way in this case. I have not.

What I have said is that if it's a public space or even a private space where I have a right to be, there is nothing morally, legally or otherwise wrong in asking people who are out of place a question. Show me where I have advocated anything more than that.

Asking questions is what I do for a living. Verbal judo etc.. is a useful skill and I'm betting I practice it more than most here. Sweetness and light....

[Hammer_Man]

Is English your first language? I ask because you are interpreting what I have said very strangely. First, show me exactly where I have specifically defended the two people inolved here or how they did things in any way in this case. I have not.

What I have said is that if it's a public space or even a private space where I have a right to be, there is nothing morally, legally or otherwise wrong in asking people who are out of place a question. Show me where I have advocated anything more than that.

Asking questions is what I do for a living. Verbal judo etc.. is a useful skill and I'm betting I practice it more than most here. Sweetness and light....

No there isn't anything wrong with asking people questions, what is wrong is hunting them down with guns drawn, and attempting to detain them without probable cause.

[utahjeepr]

There is definitely a need to proactively watch out for your AO, but the Deliverance family duo did it all wrong. I mean even "IF" this guy was a bad actor they had nothing on him. Their methods caused this tragedy. For all I know they may be fine folks, but they F'd this up and they gotta pay the bill. The way that they and those around them have acted from the time of the incident onward makes it seem unlikely to me that they are fine people.

One can certainly engage a suspicious individual without violence, ascertain what they are doing, and go your separate ways. You need to be very careful doing so however, because escalating a situation comes with risks and responsibilities. If you do not accept that and don't already have contingency plans rolling in the back of your mind then you are not prepared to engage that individual.

[Esq.]

There is definitely a need to proactively watch out for your AO, but the Deliverance family duo did it all wrong. I mean even "IF" this guy was a bad actor they had nothing on him. Their methods caused this tragedy. For all I know they may be fine folks, but they F'd this up and they gotta pay the bill. The way that they and those around them have acted from the time of the incident onward makes it seem unlikely to me that they are fine people.

One can certainly engage a suspicious individual without violence, ascertain what they are doing, and go your separate ways. You need to be very careful doing so however, because escalating a situation comes with risks and responsibilities. If you do not accept that and don't already have contingency plans rolling in the back of your mind then you are not prepared to engage that individual.

This weekend I had an opportunity to "visit with" someone who was out of place. They were not from the neighborhood and were driving around slowly, in a pos, obviously looking....

I saw them coming up the street for the third time and I stepped up to the street and called out to them, "Hey, have you guys seen a cocker spaniel?" They stopped...."Yea, my dog is lost and you guys have been cruising up and down (Yea, I've noticed you), have you seen him?" Gave me a perfectly reasonable way to engage them without saying, "Wtf you doing in my hood bro?"

"Uh, no man, haven't seen any dogs.." It was pretty obvious they didn't care for the interaction but there was nothing confrontational or escalatory about it....Never saw them again and I could describe them to a tee-and they knew it...

[26 Inf]

What more can I tell you?

Nothing much, I just was curious. Your posts about this issue had me wondering what your practice was.

You mention Massad Ayyob and Tom Givens, they are on the board that decides whether the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network is going to offer their services to those who have subscribed to the network. I wonder what their decision would have been if the duo had been members?

[Esq.]

You mention Massad Ayyob and Tom Givens, they are on the board that decides whether the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network is going to offer their services to those who have subscribed to the network. I wonder what their decision would have been if the duo had been members?

Yea that's an interesting question. I got to spend about an hour with Don West-Zimmermans primary defense attorney talking about the case. Wish it was a whole day! It was fascinating because I had followed the case pretty closely but I had NO IDEA how clear cut the whole thing really was. The case they built, based on the evidence, really compelled only one outcome.

I wouldn't say The System tried to frame Zimmerman.....but it was pretty damn close. Which is just my way of saying, if you weren't standing right there watching this thing happen....you don't know nearly as much as you think you do about it....I think the same can be said for most of these incidents honestly.

[tb-av]

I wouldn't say The System tried to frame Zimmerman.....but it was pretty damn close. Which is just my way of saying, if you weren't standing right there watching this thing happen....you don't know nearly as much as you think you do about it....I think the same can be said for most of these incidents honestly.

That confuses me about your other points. You seem to dis-like the "I'm not getting involved, call the cops" group. You claim lots of broke people can't repair their autos, but shouldn't be concerned about a $25K legal bill if they end up shooting someone. Now you say, the powers that be will frame a citizen and short of witnesses you could really get screwed.

I don't see how all that aligns for everyday people to simply do what their gut tells them in the moment. Again, my gut would never tell me to go chase down some kid that simply checked out a construction home that had been left open.

[Esq.]

That confuses me about your other points. You seem to dis-like the "I'm not getting involved, call the cops" group. You claim lots of broke people can't repair their autos, but shouldn't be concerned about a $25K legal bill if they end up shooting someone. Now you say, the powers that be will frame a citizen and short of witnesses you could really get screwed.

I don't see how all that aligns for everyday people to simply do what their gut tells them in the moment. Again, my gut would never tell me to go chase down some kid that simply checked out a construction home that had been left open.

Here is what I think about all of this in a nutshell---

1. People NEED to be pro active in defending themselves and their property. I honestly believe our society is on the verge of serious problems and nobody is coming to help you. My own city has over sixty patrol positions that are unfilled. There are actually many more than that in the department that are unfilled because they have simply de activated them so the statistics don't SHOW them as vacant...(They will LIE RIGHT TO YOUR FACE).....Our lovely mayor just this week said that they won't be hiring officers soon because sales tax revenues took a serious hit because of Corona. Our city is moderately well managed, conservative etc....Do you think MOST CITIES are and that this downturn won't affect them in the same way- loss of revenue= loss of services. Period.

The simple fact is that most property crimes will never be solved and the burden will fall on the victims, most of whom cannot afford it. This is fundamentally wrong. We have only had a truly "professional" law enforcement apparatus in this country for about 100 years- for nearly 300 years before that, PEOPLE took care of themselves. We need to revive that culture- because "the professionals" aren't getting the job done. That's not to be taken as disparaging law enforcement at all, there are many reasons mostly out of their control that explain it, but the statistics speak for themselves. What other options are there?

2. They need to be EDUCATED in how they go about it the right way- They need to protect themselves through appropriate training, insurance, study of the appropriate law, video on their property and vehicles etc...

3. They need to be able to articulate why they did what they did- and it can't be, "I CONFRONTED the guy and I was in FEAR FOR MY LIFE, SO I SHOT HIM"...No, I simply asked him if he was looking for a particular home, he seemed to be lost... etc...He got belligerent- (Which is not a normal reaction to a simple and honest question).......

4. You need to understand the political terrain you are operating in. Mine is pretty forgiving honestly. Generally, the DA locally isn't interested in charging decent, law abiding folks who have encounters with felons.

5. You don't have to shoot people or even let them know you are armed (which clearly you should never do unless threatened) to have a positive effect. Criminals....don't like to be noticed. That alone, simply letting them know that you know what they are up to will often make them move along. One guy that I had a conversation with I noted, "What year is this Explorer? Great car. I had one just like it, same color green and everything"...."Oh, you're a Seahawks fan (wearing jersey), yea, they beat my Packers"...."Man, you look like you could have played football! You gotta be 6' and 225!, wish I could lay off the Ice Cream and hit the gym like you"....They KNOW that that is a DESCRIPTION and that's the LAST THING they want. Was I "aggressive" in any way, shape or form with the guy?...Nope, just admiring his ride and sharing some football talk....Do you think he was going to be in a hurry to bust in the neighbors house that day?

6. I think the "don't get involved call the cops" thing is a cop out. It's LAZY, the path of least resistance- What other areas of your life do you ACCEPT THAT in? People CAN educate themselves to play a real role in their own defense and defense of their property. If you don't want to do that, then, just be honest and tell the guy- "You're screwed, lay back and enjoy it". It's more honest.

Semi random thoughts about "the problem" and how to address it.

[jsbhike]

4. You need to understand the political terrain you are operating in. Mine is pretty forgiving honestly. Generally, the DA locally isn't interested in charging decent, law abiding folks who have encounters with felons.

The local DA's were fine with the McMichaels doing ??? When it got outside of their control it suddenly wasn't ok any more.

I can think of several LE uses of force that were fine and dandy with friendly locals, but ended up in federal court along with a conviction.

[Esq.]

The local DA's were fine with the McMichaels doing ??? When it got outside of their control it suddenly wasn't ok any more.

I can think of several LE uses of force that were fine and dandy with friendly locals, but ended up in federal court along with a conviction.

Certainly true. But the FIRST hurdle is local....Look at the Joe Horn shooting in Houston for a counter example to McMichaels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Ho...ng_controversy