Ahmaud Arbery Shooting

[jsbhike]

Appears to be a fairly accurate summary up through 5/20/20.

[Esq.]

What a great post Rogue.

I think we have all been there at one time or another, gauging if we should step in regard to activity we've seen that might be shady or illegal.

What if the vehicles they had been tromping on were yours or your neighbors?

1. How much is your auto insurance deductible? Do you even have Comp in your coverage?

2. Do you know what body work costs,? How about a front windshield?

3. Do you like driving beat to shit vehicles? Btw, the most significant investment most Americans have, outside of their home, is their vehicle.((According to Kelley, the average price of a new vehicle in the U.S. exceeds $38k)

4. If an officer was not coincidentally standing nearby, what do you think the odds are the kids are caught?

5. What if the above scenario was something that happened semi regularly? Say, one every 6-8 months ...Are you going to pay that deductible or the shop costs over and over while smiling?

I think those are reasonable and relevant questions.

[opngrnd]

What if the vehicles they had been tromping on were yours or your neighbors?

1. How much is your auto insurance deductible? Do you even have Comp in your coverage?

2. Do you know what body work costs,? How about a front windshield?

3. Do you like driving beat to shit vehicles? Btw, the most significant investment most Americans have, outside of their home, is their vehicle.((According to Kelley, the average price of a new vehicle in the U.S. exceeds $38k)

4. If an officer was not coincidentally standing nearby, what do you think the odds are the kids are caught?

5. What if the above scenario was something that happened semi regularly? Say, one every 6-8 months ...Are you going to pay that deductible or the shop costs over and over while smiling?

I think those are reasonable and relevant questions.

In light of these questions, consider the following question:
1-Are you sufficiently rich that potentially months in court and all associated costs are a minor expense of cash and time to you, regardless of verdict?

[Esq.]

In light of these questions, consider the following question:
1-Are you sufficiently rich that potentially months in court and all associated costs are a minor expense of cash and time to you, regardless of verdict?

I've always felt pivoting is a less than honest debate tactic.....

[opngrnd]

I've always felt pivoting is a less than honest debate tactic.....

I apologize if that sounds confrontational or like a debate. I'm not disagreeing with your points. More like adding an additional consideration to the decision making process. If you were in this situation, and I 100% agreed with your motivations for wanting to preserve your property, I would still hate to see you lose your livelihood in legal proceedings despite being cleared of wrongdoing. People can make decisions completely within the legal limits of the law and still lose in terms of time and money spent. Sometimes life only punishes the guy trying to do the right thing because he's the one with something to lose.

[Esq.]

I apologize if that sounds confrontational or like a debate. I'm not disagreeing with your points. More like adding an additional consideration to the decision making process. If you were in this situation, and I 100% agreed with your motivations for wanting to preserve your property, I would still hate to see you lose your livelihood in legal proceedings despite being cleared of wrongdoing. People can make decisions completely within the legal limits of the law and still lose in terms of time and money spent. Sometimes life only punishes the guy trying to do the right thing because he's the one with something to lose.

You are absolutely right, it IS a valid consideration. As an attorney, I know and understand intimately the risks. But, I find most peoples' attitudes here completely dismissive of the idea of confronting petty thieves and vandals etc....They can't seem to understand that our society is degenerating at a rapid pace. The old ideas about how to handle things are being found to be ineffective.....These offenses are being essentially de criminalized by lenient treatment of offenders and lackluster enforcement.

The net result is going to be a lot more of this type of activity- especially with the unemployment numbers we now have and the many prisoner releases taking place- WAKE UP! It WILL HAPPEN IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD- and you can either let it happen or do something about it, personally- those are the options. NOBODY IS COMING TO SAVE YOU.... Now, if you are going to do something about it you have to be smart in the way you approach the situation etc...but it's not really an option to just allow thieves and vandals to steal and destroy your property because-- 1. There is NO INSURANCE CLAIM- YOU ARE TAKING IT IN THE BUTT ON THIS- over and over... 2. Law Enforcement will/can do nothing.

My response directly to the issue you raise is that we can name two major incidents where things escalated and ended badly for the people who were protecting their stuff/neighborhood- Zimmerman and this one. However, how many times does some scumbag either end up-- 1. At citizen gunpoint surrendered to the police 2. Scared off 3. Shot dead and NOTHING HAPPENS of consequence to the citizen? I'm guessing it's far more common than the outcome here.

[opngrnd]

You are absolutely right, it IS a valid consideration. As an attorney, I know and understand intimately the risks. But, I find most peoples' attitudes here completely dismissive of the idea of confronting petty thieves and vandals etc....They can't seem to understand that our society is degenerating at a rapid pace. The old ideas about how to handle things are being found to be ineffective.....These offenses are being essentially de criminalized by lenient treatment of offenders and lackluster enforcement.

The net result is going to be a lot more of this type of activity- especially with the unemployment numbers we now have and the many prisoner releases taking place- WAKE UP! It WILL HAPPEN IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD- and you can either let it happen or do something about it, personally- those are the options. NOBODY IS COMING TO SAVE YOU.... Now, if you are going to do something about it you have to be smart in the way you approach the situation etc...but it's not really an option to just allow thieves and vandals to steal and destroy your property because-- 1. There is NO INSURANCE CLAIM- YOU ARE TAKING IT IN THE BUTT ON THIS- over and over... 2. Law Enforcement will/can do nothing.

My response directly to the issue you raise is that we can name two major incidents where things escalated and ended badly for the people who were protecting their stuff/neighborhood- Zimmerman and this one. However, how many times does some scumbag either end up-- 1. At citizen gunpoint surrendered to the police 2. Scared off 3. Shot dead and NOTHING HAPPENS of consequence to the citizen? I'm guessing it's far more common than the outcome here.

Very good points. Thank you for sharing your background as well. I have had a two situations where being armed prevented an issue, but there was no confrontation. I live in a small enough area I was able to reach out to LE, let them know I was moving a battered woman & children out, and that I conceal carry but would call them at the first sign of trouble. Just my limited experience.

[mrbieler]

You are absolutely right, it IS a valid consideration. As an attorney, I know and understand intimately the risks. But, I find most peoples' attitudes here completely dismissive of the idea of confronting petty thieves and vandals etc....

Dismissive or perhaps many of the posters here are smart enough not to chase down folks in cars and confront them with drawn pistols and shotguns.

[Averageman]

Dismissive or perhaps many of the posters here are smart enough not to chase down folks in cars and confront them with drawn pistols and shotguns.

Since this post has started drifting this way a bit.
If I've learned anything in the last twenty years it's to not get spun up about other peoples problems. Miscreants doing some damage to other peoples cars on public property isn't my problem. I think that's when you pull out the cell phone camera call 911 and be a good witness.
I kind of draw the line at violence, well, against women anyway. Some mutton head male arbitrarily deciding to fight all of them at once is on his own, he owns that bad decision.
Life is different, it's not the sixties or seventies anymore.

[Esq.]

Dismissive or perhaps many of the posters here are smart enough not to chase down folks in cars and confront them with drawn pistols and shotguns.

No, it's more than that. There is a certain segment of the training industry etc...that promotes the "not my problem" mentality and "Call the Cops" or "Just file insurance" or "Hey, they make new TV's every day, just let them steal whatever they want. Not worth the hassle".

That's fine. As long as you can take the loss--- and you will, over and over. Many people CANNOT TAKE THAT LOSS. Even before the Covid shutdown with tens of millions newly unemployed, 61% of Americans could not handle an unexpected $400 expense. That's fact. Now, I'm sure everyone here has a gold plated crapper- but most people do not. The standard advice of "Just call the cops to take a report for your insurance" is bullshit for those people. It's not reality. They work hard for what little they have and they will continually lose if they don't personally step up and take care of the problem. First, one out of every 36 homes in the country will be burglarized this year. Then, you do realize that for every three home burglaries committed, one of those is a REPEAT?

https://reolink.com/repeat-burglary/

https://www.csun.edu/~dorsogna/mwebs...pers/JQC-1.pdf

https://www.popcenter.org/sites/defa...4-Kleemans.pdf

With the number of unemployed we have, prisoners being released early, fewer law enforcement resources (My local department is 60 patrol officers understaffed- we've have more than one shots fired call that took AN HOUR to respond to) and the likelihood that economic conditions will at best improve slowly- this is a shit storm that has Katrina like staying power. This isn't 1985 anymore and our society doesn't work the same way it did. You can Cognitive Dissonance all you want....until you can't!