Ahmaud Arbery Shooting

[Hammer_Man]

No, it's more than that. There is a certain segment of the training industry etc...that promotes the "not my problem" mentality and "Call the Cops" or "Just file insurance" or "Hey, they make new TV's every day, just let them steal whatever they want. Not worth the hassle".

That's fine. As long as you can take the loss--- and you will, over and over. Many people CANNOT TAKE THAT LOSS. Even before the Covid shutdown with tens of millions newly unemployed, 61% of Americans could not handle an unexpected $400 expense. That's fact. Now, I'm sure everyone here has a gold plated crapper- but most people do not. The standard advice of "Just call the cops to take a report for your insurance" is bullshit for those people. It's not reality. They work hard for what little they have and they will continually lose if they don't personally step up and take care of the problem. First, one out of every 36 homes in the country will be burglarized this year. Then, you do realize that for every three home burglaries committed, one of those is a REPEAT?

https://reolink.com/repeat-burglary/

https://www.csun.edu/~dorsogna/mwebs...pers/JQC-1.pdf

https://www.popcenter.org/sites/defa...4-Kleemans.pdf

With the number of unemployed we have, prisoners being released early, fewer law enforcement resources (My local department is 60 patrol officers understaffed- we've have more than one shots fired call that took AN HOUR to respond to) and the likelihood that economic conditions will at best improve slowly- this is a shit storm that has Katrina like staying power. This isn't 1985 anymore and our society doesn't work the same way it did. You can Cognitive Dissonance all you want....until you can't!

So yeah, lets just chase down unarmed people and detain them at gun point without any perceived threat to yourself or your property. These three idiots deserve the jail time that's coming to them.

[Esq.]

So yeah, lets just chase down unarmed people and detain them at gun point without any perceived threat to yourself or your property. These three idiots deserve the jail time that's coming to them.

That's not what I said. At all. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things.

But I don't think you can simply say, "Just let them destroy and take whatever they want" unless you are ok with being bankrupt. What is your solution exactly knowing the likelihood- and I've shown the statistics, that essentially NOTHING will be done to help you that you don't do yourself..... NOTHING.

[Chubbs103]

This isn't 1985 anymore and our society doesn't work the same way it did. You can Cognitive Dissonance all you want....until you can't!

Esq, I have seen you reference it not being 1985 anymore in several posts. I'm not sure I get it. The crime rate is lower across the board from 1985.

[mrbieler]

No, it's more than that. There is a certain segment of the training industry etc...that promotes the "not my problem" mentality and "Call the Cops" or "Just file insurance" or "Hey, they make new TV's every day, just let them steal whatever they want. Not worth the hassle".

In the response I pulled your quote from, you were comparing it to this current shooting and that was my point.

There is significant difference between being involved in your surroundings and being an instigator in them. Rolling up on a guy with guns drawn after you've chased him down and boxed him in is a lot more than being involved.

[opngrnd]

In the response I pulled your quote from, you were comparing it to this current shooting and that was my point.

There is significant difference between being involved in your surroundings and being an instigator in them. Rolling up on a guy with guns drawn after you've chased him down and boxed him in is a lot more than being involved.

FWIW, I was discussing hypothetical situations not including the Ahmaud Arbery shooting. I was under the impression he was too, since that hypothetical doesn't fit the Arbery shooting at all.

[Esq.]

Esq, I have seen you reference it not being 1985 anymore in several posts. I'm not sure I get it. The crime rate is lower across the board from 1985.

That's true, but I would argue that we don't TREAT crime in the same way that we used to. It used to be that you called a cop, that was a perfectly reasonable thing to do. They showed up and there was a reasonable chance that someone might get caught and if they did, they did time- they were punished. Now, it's a joke. Literally, the last I knew the average TIME SERVED for murder, is 6 years. Do you really think they are going to put a guy away for any substantial time for swiping your big screen? The 2 months in jail with time off for good behavior etc..is no real disincentive- first because the odds of getting caught are so horribly lopsided in favor of criminals and secondly because the system has little interest in really punishing people because it costs money to house prisoners etc... Nope, the old, "Just call the cops and file insurance" thing is a joke. It is NO REMEDY at all.

The entire concept of a civil society is that we surrender some of our personal autonomy (among this is our right to extract personal justice) to the government- with the understanding that they will mete out justice fairly, proportionately etc....When that doesn't happen, and I would submit that it is not, Then What?

That is the difference that I feel many people don't understand when they simply utter platitudes about "Call the police, make a report for insurance".... You might as well say, "You're screwed, enjoy being a victim"- it would be a more honest bit of advice given current realities for most people.

How much of a victim can most people afford to be? Here's a good example. I just ordered a new door for my house. Fiberglass 32x80, no windows, nothing fancy at all. $540. Plus installation and new locks. Installation will probably run over $200 and the locks with the service call, nearly as much. Nearly $1000 for a plain friggen door. If a burglar does nothing more than just bust in the door and then get scared off- that's a serious expense- and one that insurance will not realistically cover. How many times can your personal budget handle a $2,800-3,000 expense -the nationwide average loss on a home burglary?

[Esq.]

In the response I pulled your quote from, you were comparing it to this current shooting and that was my point.

There is significant difference between being involved in your surroundings and being an instigator in them. Rolling up on a guy with guns drawn after you've chased him down and boxed him in is a lot more than being involved.

Agreed. That's why I have said that it needs to be done in the right way. Personally, if I see people trolling the neighborhood- look, I've lived in the same house 25 years. I know every neighbor within a half mile, their wife, their kids, their vehicles, their routines, their friends etc.....If I see someone that I know is out of place, I'm going to go up to them, all smiles, sweetness and light, and ask if I can, "Help you find someone/something?" etc....Not with a drawn gun etc....but I AM GOING TO LET THEM KNOW TO THEIR FACE THAT I HAVE SEEN THEM etc....If they have a reasonable story-- "Hey, cool, say HI to Joe for me"....If they want to throw down at that point, well, not much I can do about that...

[26 Inf]

You are absolutely right, it IS a valid consideration. As an attorney, I know and understand intimately the risks. But, I find most peoples' attitudes here completely dismissive of the idea of confronting petty thieves and vandals etc....They can't seem to understand that our society is degenerating at a rapid pace. The old ideas about how to handle things are being found to be ineffective.....These offenses are being essentially de criminalized by lenient treatment of offenders and lackluster enforcement.

I would say if you normally confront petty thieves and vandals when you aren't carrying, then rock on. The attitude that carrying gives you license to do thing/go places you wouldn't normally go willget you in trouble, fast.

The net result is going to be a lot more of this type of activity- especially with the unemployment numbers we now have and the many prisoner releases taking place- WAKE UP! It WILL HAPPEN IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD- and you can either let it happen or do something about it, personally- those are the options. NOBODY IS COMING TO SAVE YOU.... Now, if you are going to do something about it you have to be smart in the way you approach the situation etc...but it's not really an option to just allow thieves and vandals to steal and destroy your property because-- 1. There is NO INSURANCE CLAIM- YOU ARE TAKING IT IN THE BUTT ON THIS- over and over... 2. Law Enforcement will/can do nothing.

My response directly to the issue you raise is that we can name two major incidents where things escalated and ended badly for the people who were protecting their stuff/neighborhood- Zimmerman and this one. However, how many times does some scumbag either end up-- 1. At citizen gunpoint surrendered to the police 2. Scared off 3. Shot dead and NOTHING HAPPENS of consequence to the citizen? I'm guessing it's far more common than the outcome here.

Zimmerman is a perfect example of the point I made, I suspect these two guys will be.

Where did you get your JD from. if I might ask, and what is your normal practice?

[Esq.]

Zimmerman is a perfect example of the point I made, I suspect these two guys will be.

Where did you get your JD from. if I might ask, and what is your normal practice?

I graduated from a top 100 law school- which isn't all that impressive honestly, but there are over 200 in the U.S, so we're ranked right in the middle....I don't consider myself a "brilliant lawyer" honestly....I'm a worker bee.....I'm a Board Certified Personal Injury Trial Attorney in practice 25 years. I sue people for a living. I have handled many Civil, firearms related, cases, including shootings. I personally have over 2,000 hours of training from instructors including Tom Givens, Louis Awerbuck, Massad Ayoob, Clint Smith, Paul Howe, Aaron Barruga etc....I have presented firearms law topics for the State Bar of Texas, for Continuing Legal Education, on more than one occasion. In one of my few forays into Criminal/Administrative law I successfully represented a local PD officer in regards to an on duty, lethal force matter. What more can I tell you?

[Hammer_Man]

That's not what I said. At all. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things.

But I don't think you can simply say, "Just let them destroy and take whatever they want" unless you are ok with being bankrupt. What is your solution exactly knowing the likelihood- and I've shown the statistics, that essentially NOTHING will be done to help you that you don't do yourself..... NOTHING.

First off their property and loved ones were not being threatened. The property Mr. Arbery was walking through was an unfinished home that was not occupied by the defendants, or anybody for that matter. I've walked through homes under construction many times to check things out. Does that give some vigilante retard the right to chase me down with his pickup and hold me against my will at gunpoint?

Bottom line, it wasn't their property. Any argument about the defendants defending their property/belongings is null and void. Secondly, they had zero cause to believe he took anything from that construction sight. Even if he took something, Mr. Arbery posed no threat to them as he was jogging away from them. They had zero cause to run him down, and detain him at gunpoint. Name the law, clause, or statute that gives these idiots the go ahead to do what they did. Please link to it for the world to see.

Using your logic we should all be able to hunt down and shoot anybody that steps foot on our neighbors lawn, because hey they MIGHT have done something.