Leupold TMR reticle, any good for long range? (800-1000 yards)

**crossgun** · 05-27-20, 06:43

Tremor 3 shines for its wind holds. Tree reticles are great, pending their design. especially if your planning on holding off for wind. Pretty hard to guess precise hold offs once your below the center horizontal line. In multiple target engagements and differing distances dialing isn't always an option based on time. You might consider the CCH reticle as well. Once you use and understand you will not find them as busy as they appear and the added ability you have to spot and call your impacts can be a plus.

I cant find really good pics of the TMR but after review it wouldn't be my first choice.

I also am looking at the Mark 5 3-18 for what I would call a "DMR" type application. I just bought the Nightforce NX8 2.5-20 and sold it before even mounting as I was disappointed with the eye box. I wish the Mark 5 wasnt a 35 mm tube but believe it may be the best all around value considering its feature set and glass.

**pointblank4445** · 05-27-20, 10:40

Originally Posted by crossgun

Tremor 3 shines for its wind holds.

In multiple target engagements and differing distances dialing isn't always an option based on time.

I think people CONUS overestimate how often they're going to play rooftop whack-a-mole against scores of savages encroaching on their position. Plenty of gamer dudes dial that don't seem to have a problem with clearing stages in time.

Tremor 3 is what it is and is makes sense for where it is being fielded. It's a VERY environment/magnification dependent system. That said, it disturbs me how many people champion the wind hold thing that don't realize the same concepts can be applied to regular old mils without the need for extra clutter.

People going to like what they like; everything's got pro's and con's...despite what many say about the Tremor3.

**Hammer_Man** · 05-27-20, 15:08

Originally Posted by crossgun

Tremor 3 shines for its wind holds. Tree reticles are great, pending their design. especially if your planning on holding off for wind. Pretty hard to guess precise hold offs once your below the center horizontal line. In multiple target engagements and differing distances dialing isn't always an option based on time. You might consider the CCH reticle as well. Once you use and understand you will not find them as busy as they appear and the added ability you have to spot and call your impacts can be a plus.

I cant find really good pics of the TMR but after review it wouldn't be my first choice.

I also am looking at the Mark 5 3-18 for what I would call a "DMR" type application. I just bought the Nightforce NX8 2.5-20 and sold it before even mounting as I was disappointed with the eye box. I wish the Mark 5 wasnt a 35 mm tube but believe it may be the best all around value considering its feature set and glass.

After handling a Mark 5, it is definitely at the top of my list. The other scopes I'm considering are the NF ATACR, and Steiner M5xi.

Originally Posted by pointblank4445

I think people CONUS overestimate how often they're going to play rooftop whack-a-mole against scores of savages encroaching on their position. Plenty of gamer dudes dial that don't seem to have a problem with clearing stages in time.

Tremor 3 is what it is and is makes sense for where it is being fielded. It's a VERY environment/magnification dependent system. That said, it disturbs me how many people champion the wind hold thing that don't realize the same concepts can be applied to regular old mils without the need for extra clutter.

People going to like what they like; everything's got pro's and con's...despite what many say about the Tremor3.

You make valid points. My concern is spending over $2k for an optic with the TMR, and finding it not to my liking later on. I could just as easily spend over $2k on an optic with a Tremor 3, and find it not to my liking either. The draw toward the Tremor 3 for me, is that it seems like a reticle I can grow into as my skills progress.

**DW68** · 05-27-20, 15:48

I’ve had a Mark4 illuminated TMR for a few years which I’ve pushed to 1000 yards. I consider myself somewhat of a novice shooter but felt that it definitely got the job done and have no regrets whatsoever. However, after having experienced some of the challenges that go with longer distances (Mainly wind), I can see the attraction of a tree type reticle and have also been looking at the Mark 5 line. Personally, I would definitely like to try one first before making such a big purchase.

**SomeOtherGuy** · 05-27-20, 15:50

Originally Posted by Hammer_Man

You make valid points. My concern is spending over $2k for an optic with the TMR, and finding it not to my liking later on. I could just as easily spend over $2k on an optic with a Tremor 3, and find it not to my liking either. The draw toward the Tremor 3 for me, is that it seems like a reticle I can grow into as my skills progress.

People vary and there are some experienced shooters who like busy tree reticles - but not tons. I think you are more likely to grow OUT of the Tremor 3 as you gain experience. There will probably be good resale value for the scope, but don't get the impression that the Horus grid reticles are something favored by a majority of experienced shooters. They do two things reasonably well:
1) In very specific situations - timed competition on an uncluttered simple range - they allow fast and simple holdovers and/or spotting of hits.
2) They are good for training motivated beginners to do DMR style shooting under similar conditions.

There was a long article on this about 1-2 years ago on one of the precision shooting sites - can't remember if it was Sniper's Hide, Precision Rifle Blog, or where. It's worth searching for though.

Most experienced shooters will dial elevation and hold windage, and any mil-hash works well for this. It's also quite possible to hold both elevation and windage simultaneously on a mil-hash with practice. For me, it's easier to visualize an imaginary intersection between two single rulers, vs. counting hashes and dots to find the exact right dot or mini-cross in a cluttered grid.

Can't find the specific article I remember, but here is one detailed pro/con:

https://www.rexreviews.org/community...l-dm-vs-sniper

And a wide range of opinions between the H59 (not Tremor 3 but similar) and the G3 (a very simple tree):

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting...ticle.6869028/

**pointblank4445** · 05-27-20, 15:58

Originally Posted by Hammer_Man

You make valid points. My concern is spending over $2k for an optic with the TMR, and finding it not to my liking later on. I could just as easily spend over $2k on an optic with a Tremor 3, and find it not to my liking either. The draw toward the Tremor 3 for me, is that it seems like a reticle I can grow into as my skills progress.

Trust your own perceptions and be honest with what you see. If a reticle is too thick, too thin, too cluttered, too hard to see, you're probably right. Do you want an open center, floating dot, or hard crosshair?...what's pleasing to you? Dots or dashes in your Xmas tree? Is it easy to "get lost" or not be on the hold you thought you were. If you find yourself counting through dots to where you need to be...probably not as fast as one thinks.

I don't know if I'm unique in this, but as my skill grew, I found out I needed less from a reticle in many cases, not more. With the exception of competition rigs, I found that a limited reticle like the Gen 2 XR was more than sufficient with a minimalist tree and stadia at ever 0.5 mil or for lower magnification stuff, MSR2. That Gen 2 mildot/TMR/MSR reticle has plenty of love to give.

I'm not a great shooter and I can get to 1/2 mile with match 5.56 an an 8x mildot and 3/4 mile with a Gen 2 mildot at 16x with a 308, I'm confident in saying that 1000y would not be hard for a MK5 TMR scope. That said, I will contend that I desire MORE than a traditional Mildot, but I can make it work.

If you like/run the Tremor 3...great! But I feel that more than a few bought it for the perceived "easy button method" as described by shooters with limited scope (pardon the pun) ...especially the "wind holds" which are more or less a wind BDC based off of ballistics and mil scale.

One can just as easily use the following:
G1 BC of your round x 10 = #mph per 0.1 mil per 100y
Ball park that would equate to:
4mph of full value wind for 77smk (.224) per 0.1 mil at 100y (0.2 mils @ 200y, 0.3 mils @ 300y and so on)
5mph of full value wind for 175smk (.308) per 0.1 mil at 100y
6mph of full value wind for 140smk (.264) per 0.1 mil at 100y
8mph of full value wind for 300smk (.338) per 0.1 mil at 100y

The T3 isn't special...it just puts this extra crap up there for you and relieves one of simple math (and knowing the above concept)...which can be very effective if practiced.

Of course ALL are dependent upon proper data collection and accurate wind reading to make the proper shooting solution in the first place. If one can't do that, hold/dial is meaningless.

CHEERS

**crossgun** · 05-28-20, 07:09

Originally Posted by pointblank4445

I think people CONUS overestimate how often they're going to play rooftop whack-a-mole against scores of savages encroaching on their position. .

Now that put a smile on my face

Guess my only point about the T3 and its wind dots was that really the only thing I believe it brings to the party vs any other MIL based tree reticle. Am I wrong? I can dial and hold off with the best of them in the gammer world but do prefer a uncluttered tree like the Vortex EBR-7C on my Razor. I just wish the Leupold had a slightly better reticle offering in the Mark 5 than the TMR and persoanlly cant wrap myself around their CCH reticle. As you mentioned its about what an individual likes and sees.

Be great for all of us if it was easier to get hands on vs buy and try but that's what it is.

**pointblank4445** · 05-28-20, 10:14

Originally Posted by crossgun

Now that put a smile on my face

Be great for all of us if it was easier to get hands on vs buy and try but that's what it is.

That would put the optics trade to a grinding halt...lol.

Like I said above, the wind hold thing is fine but unless you're shooting the 175smk 308 that was used, you have to figure out your true wind holds for those wind values. Maybe they aren't a nice, round number anymore. As you noted, that clutter comes at a cost as well. And all this is assuming the individual has an accurate wind read to begin with... I think that's the main thing that irks me is a lot of guys have been trained up on T3 and push it on to newer shooters and they drink the koolaid without knowing any better and many in turn become parrots for a reticle/concept they don't truly understand.

**Tx_Aggie** · 05-28-20, 13:03

Originally Posted by crossgun

Now that put a smile on my face

Guess my only point about the T3 and its wind dots was that really the only thing I believe it brings to the party vs any other MIL based tree reticle. Am I wrong? I can dial and hold off with the best of them in the gammer world but do prefer a uncluttered tree like the Vortex EBR-7C on my Razor. I just wish the Leupold had a slightly better reticle offering in the Mark 5 than the TMR and persoanlly cant wrap myself around their CCH reticle. As you mentioned its about what an individual likes and sees.

Be great for all of us if it was easier to get hands on vs buy and try but that's what it is.

Leupold supposedly has an improved PRS oriented reticle coming for the Mark 5 scopes.