Pistol caliber carbines are winning my soul - and they should win yours too

[Todd.K]

Todd, the controls on the B&T APC9s are *almost* identical to an AR. They even use an AR like trigger.

Even the TP9 has a thumb safety now rather than the crossbolt, so there are more and better options these days for sure.

[1168]

Okay, to ask a question in the same vein as this thread: what ammo for a PCC? Let's assume 100m max expectation of range capability. So from 0-100m are we going with heavy 147gr, mid-weight 124's, or flyweight 115gr fodder? +P or standard pressure? JHP or FMJ?

I would think a hot 115gr load would fly a little "flatter" than the others, but lack the penetration of the heavier rounds.

I’m normally a 147gr guy, but for PCC, we’re assuming more velocity is desired. As noted above, heavier bullets gain very little in longer barrels. In fact, that’s one of the reasons I like 147. I can expect similar performance whether carrying a M9a1 or a G43. Also some blowback guns don’t seem to prefer 147gr, particularly with long barrels. So I’d go with 124+p, and use the cheap “NATO” ball ammo for training, since the zeros should be similar. If you go with 115 +p for whatever reason, Aguila makes a +p 115 fmj that can be used for training.

We should realize that some of these may penetrate inadequately up close if they get enough velocity boost, so something like XTP, which notoriously needs more velocity to work correctly, may be appropriate.

I just use mine for training. But I do keep a mag of Critical Duty +P (not saying its the best choice) on hand in case my 5.56 gun is disassembled for repair or whatever.

BTW, 115 gr ball loses around 100fps at 50m, per Labradar.

[fedupflyer]

redacted

[ABNAK]

I’m normally a 147gr guy, but for PCC, we’re assuming more velocity is desired. As noted above, heavier bullets gain very little in longer barrels. In fact, that’s one of the reasons I like 147. I can expect similar performance whether carrying a M9a1 or a G43. Also some blowback guns don’t seem to prefer 147gr, particularly with long barrels. So I’d go with 124+p, and use the cheap “NATO” ball ammo for training, since the zeros should be similar. If you go with 115 +p for whatever reason, Aguila makes a +p 115 fmj that can be used for training.

We should realize that some of these may penetrate inadequately up close if they get enough velocity boost, so something like XTP, which notoriously needs more velocity to work correctly, may be appropriate.

I just use mine for training. But I do keep a mag of Critical Duty +P (not saying its the best choice) on hand in case my 5.56 gun is disassembled for repair or whatever.

BTW, 115 gr ball loses around 100fps at 50m, per Labradar.

Lucky Gunner article on 9mm loads from a 16" barrel. Personally I'll take the 124gr +P Gold Dots they show.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/s...iber-carbines/

Looking up some data, a 124gr +P JHP launching from a 16" barrel at ~1400fps should be around ~1130fps or so at 100yds. That would be the equivalent at 100yds of shooting someone point-blank with a standard pressure (non +P) bullet. I could live with that from a pistol round.

[RHINOWSO]

Looking up some data, a 124gr +P JHP launching from a 16" barrel at ~1400fps should be around ~1130fps or so at 100yds. That would be the equivalent at 100yds of shooting someone point-blank with a standard pressure (non +P) bullet. I could live with that from a pistol round.

Point being, if you are using a 16" barrel, you are FAR better off shooting 5.56x45.

The whole point (as I see it for a PCC) would be in a "pistol" format with a barrel <7" with a folding brace. Concealable (and legal to carry loaded vs a rifle), more capable than a pistol in terms of accuracy (RDS and a shouldered brace being more accurate than a conventional pistol) and higher capacity magazines.

Bump it out to longer barrels, especially 14-16" and a 5.56x45 is FAR more effective on all counts than 9MM and the PCC is an anemic "why?".

[ABNAK]

Point being, if you are using a 16" barrel, you are FAR better off shooting 5.56x45.

The whole point (as I see it for a PCC) would be in a "pistol" format with a barrel <7" with a folding brace. Concealable (and legal to carry loaded vs a rifle), more capable than a pistol in terms of accuracy (RDS and a shouldered brace being more accurate than a conventional pistol) and higher capacity magazines.

Bump it out to longer barrels, especially 14-16" and a 5.56x45 is FAR more effective on all counts than 9MM and the PCC is an anemic "why?".

Yeah I get what you're saying but I was thinking about that Kel Tec Sub2000 Gen2 I have down in the gun room. It folds in half and is really light weight. If it was non-foldable it wouldn't be even a consideration. Since I have it already, and it isn't north of $2K for the latest/greatest as I'm sure is being mentioned here (like the CZ or B&T) I might as well explore the theory being laid out with what I have on hand.

[Uni-Vibe]

Yeah I get what you're saying but I was thinking about that Kel Tec Sub2000 Gen2 I have down in the gun room. It folds in half and is really light weight. If it was non-foldable it wouldn't be even a consideration. Since I have it already, and it isn't north of $2K for the latest/greatest as I'm sure is being mentioned here (like the CZ or B&T) I might as well explore the theory being laid out with what I have on hand.

Mine takes G17 magazines and goes bang every time. So what if the cognoscenti emit refined giggles?

The Jackboyz won't see the humor!

[Arik]

The Jackboyz won't see the humor!

Unless they have armor or don't pull up 50ft behind, instead right up against your car. Or they have better rifles or they simply don't care or they're more then 3 or they don't stop but see you changing your tire and just run you over. Rifle in the trunk is very useful!

[yoni]

If you are running a 16" barreled platform, then I say it for sure should be a rifle caliber.

MP5 is a cool gun, but I would rather have a SBR AR.

I endorse the use of small sized PCC, mini Uzi, MP5K, B&T various platforms.

[ruckusjuice]

There’s a huge PDW thread on pistol forum that took off recently. Lots of good information in it. Initially there was a lot of talk about PCCs and Law folder ARs but by the end people began focusing on Sig Rattlers.