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Thread: Pistol caliber carbines are winning my soul - and they should win yours too

  1. #1
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    Pistol caliber carbines are winning my soul - and they should win yours too

    I used to be strictly an AR and Glock guy but thereís so much versatility out there in other platforms. (Plus some are just nostalgic)

    Currently pending a few stamps and one final Aimpoint micro to finish the PCC lineup but Iíve got a few B&Ts, a PS90, and others. The goal with these weapons was to be able to bring more firepower with me than just a handgun but still in a bag small enough not to raise eyebrows. (Except the HK SP5. Thatís just neat.)

    Itís pretty satisfying being able to fit 75 rounds of 9mm and an NV capable carbine into something smaller than a laptop bag. The expense needed to buy a gun is way easier to justify when you are able to bring it with you wherever you go rather than a bunch of ARs that live in the safe 24/7.

    I know this is an AR centric site, but Iím willing to bet most of us carry handguns on a day to day basis and almost all of us keep a gun near the bed for uh-ohs.

    Pistol calibers generally donít perform well against armor (save for the 5.7 if you wanna spend $10, *each* for SS190) but the PCCís job isnít to replace an AR - itís to supplement a handgun. The B&T APC9k for example is only slightly bigger than a G34. A bit too big to actually conceal on your body (although ridiculous, itís possible) but even a tiny, tiny bag will conceal it well. The level of accuracy and capability 3 points of contact and a T1 have over a handgun (even with an RMR) is insane. Imagine 100% faster split times while being able to hit targets half as big. The PS90 is so ergonomic it can be fired one handed, and Iím sure once the stamp gets back it will only be even more balanced with the shorter barrel.

    I guess my point is that lately Iíve found myself shifting away from the up armored days of GWOT into more of a grey man. Unfortunately, the AR platform doesnít really lend itself to this kind of living. Even a 10.5Ē AR with a LAW folder (which cannot be fired folded and is quite loud) is still pretty big.

    Anyone else?
    Last edited by Eurodriver; 05-23-20 at 19:32. Reason: Hit post before I was ready. Oops

  2. #2
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    Couple benefits to me Euro;
    We can legally carry the ďpistolĒ variants in vehicles hot.

    Our local dufus range invariably has the ďrifleĒ range tied up. Itís impossible to get in carbine drills/run and gun while this is happening.
    The PCCs, being handgun caliber, makes it possible to practice on the spare pistol range which is never used.
    The majority use AR9s, which doubles down as trigger time with the 5.56 guns.
    A true "Gun Guy" (or gal) should have familiarity and a modicum of proficiency with most all firearms platforms, as well as the major Food Groups.

  3. #3
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    I have a Foxtrot Mike 9 mm AR pistol. I shoot it more than my 5.56 guns. It has become my new house gun. I'm a huge fan.

    About half a dozen of my friends and co-workers have shot that gun. They went out and bought one for themselves.

  4. #4
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    Eh, I have a PCC for bag duty (CZ Evo that I had the barrel cut down to Micro length), but ultimately, I think that a small .300 BLK with a folding stock would be a far better choice. With a Rattler, you have a rifle about the same size as an MP5K-PDW, but far more capable ballistically. A LAW folder paired with a 5.5" barreled .300 BLK AR would also be of similar size.

    The spec sheet says that a P90 is 19.88”; for comparison:
    • SCAR 16 CQC is 21" folded
    • MK18 with a LAW is 20.75" folded
    • DDM4 PDW is 20.75" collapsed
    • Q Honey Badger is 20" collapsed
    • H&K G36C is 19.69" folded
    • Krink folded is 19.375"
    • Maxim Defense PDX is 18.75" collapsed
    • Robinson Arms XCR-L Micro is 18" folded
    • H&K MP7 is 16.3" collapsed
    • SIG Rattler is 16" folded
    • H&K MP5K-PDW is 14.53" folded
    • B&T APC9 K is 12.7" folded
    • B&T MP9 is 11.9"
    • Flux Defense MP17 is 10.75" collapsed
    • B&T USW-G17 is 10.67" folded
    • B&T USW-A1 is 10.12" folded


    I think that anything smaller than 20" is fine, as you can fit that in a normal-sized backpack or briefcase. I also don't see much use in being able to shoot a firearm with the stock folded, outside of some really niche close-in protection stuff, which is not an issue for me; deployment would be rough either way.
    Last edited by Defaultmp3; 05-23-20 at 21:55.
    Plus Áa change, plus c'est la mÍme chose.

    老僧三十年前未參禪時、見山是山、見水是水、及至後夾親見知識、有箇入處、見山不是山、見水不是水、而今得箇體歇處、依然見山秪是山、見水秪是水。

    https://www.instagram.com/defaultmp3/

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurodriver View Post
    . (Plus some are just nostalgic)
    Euro is that you?


    But seriously. Been thinking that same exact thing. Something small, easily concealable in a avg back pack and a little more substantial than a G19.

    I have a SBR AK but rifle and mags weigh a ton. Was thinking of a AR uner 10inch but apparently those are incredibly loud. Been looking at a Stribog 9mm
    Last edited by Arik; 05-23-20 at 22:11.

  6. #6
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    My H&K SP5 fits in a bag small enough to not raise eyebrows.
    " Political tags ó such as [...], communist, democrat, [...], fascist, liberal, conservative, [...] ó are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort. "
    - Robert Heinlein -

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    I keep coming back to a few downsides I see.

    1) Recoil. Most blowback 9mm's are kinda harsh, and more so the more usefully small they are.

    2) Controls and manual of arms. Many have controls that seem an afterthought or are at least different enough to require dedicated training.

    3) Nobody knows how long the brace honeymoon will last. Not everyone wants to or can get stamps, and a stamped gun changes the loaded pistol example above and complicates travel, even more for people who live near a State border.

    That said I'm interested in seeing if the 5.7 Gold Dot makes the PS90 more interesting, and am also in a bit of a mental struggle between what seems like a more practical B&T vs the H&K (or clone) I've always wanted for fun.

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    PCCs are great. Cheap to shoot too.
    Last edited by Aries144; 05-24-20 at 07:37.

  9. #9
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    Lightbulb

    Meh...

    A 10mm MP-5 would rock. Pittsburgh was one of the last major PD's to dump 9mm MP-5's, in favor of the AR carbine, because of their ineffectiveness against barriers. Here's the day THAT ended.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_s...olice_officers

    It was a Saturday morning - I was sitting right here at my home office computer, watching it unfold on local TV. I SAW a cop come running up, with a CASE of ammo, during the standoff. Cops put 993 rds. of 9mm into the brick house, with NO effect.

    In fact, the badguy was wounded in the INITIAL exchange between he & the officers at the door. And while everyone went apepoopy over the fact he had a WASR, he killed all 3 cops with the Savage 12 gauge (friend of mine was then, and is now a retired, Vice Lt. with Pittsburgh PD and told me this - THAT factoid didn't come out 'til the trial).

    Do I plan on frontal assaulting any holed-up badguys any time soon? Nope. Do I live in an old steel-framed, brick house? YES. Yes I do. So am I worried about over-penetration by 5.56 rounds inside my house? Nope.

    9mm MP-5's & Uzi's looked AWESOME in "Under Siege." I think I'll leave them there. In 1992.
    - Either you're part of the problem or you're part of the solution or you're just part of the landscape - Sam (Robert DeNiro) in, "Ronin" -

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_War_Wagon View Post
    Meh...

    A 10mm MP-5 would rock. Pittsburgh was one of the last major PD's to dump 9mm MP-5's, in favor of the AR carbine, because of their ineffectiveness against barriers. Here's the day THAT ended.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_s...olice_officers

    It was a Saturday morning - I was sitting right here at my home office computer, watching it unfold on local TV. I SAW a cop come running up, with a CASE of ammo, during the standoff. Cops put 993 rds. of 9mm into the brick house, with NO effect.

    In fact, the badguy was wounded in the INITIAL exchange between he & the officers at the door. And while everyone went apepoopy over the fact he had a WASR, he killed all 3 cops with the Savage 12 gauge (friend of mine was then, and is now a retired, Vice Lt. with Pittsburgh PD and told me this - THAT factoid didn't come out 'til the trial).

    Do I plan on frontal assaulting any holed-up badguys any time soon? Nope. Do I live in an old steel-framed, brick house? YES. Yes I do. So am I worried about over-penetration by 5.56 rounds inside my house? Nope.

    9mm MP-5's & Uzi's looked AWESOME in "Under Siege." I think I'll leave them there. In 1992.
    You completely missed the point of this post.

    Nobody here disagrees with you about the ineffectiveness of 9mm vs 5.56.

    But Iím gonna go out on a limb that you donít carry a 5.56mm pistol into shops and restaurants with you for EDC. Why not?

    A 9mm PCC in my hand at a grocery store is a lot more useful when some ****ed up rich white kid wants to blow people away than a 9mm handgun that holds 7 rounds or an AR15 thatís miles away in a safe.

    Donít be daft. The fact that you are referring to uzis and MP5s shows youíve been out of the game since 1992. A 9mm PCC isnít a replacement to an AR. It fills a role in between a handgun you conceal on your body and when you can bring a real rifle someplace.
    Last edited by Eurodriver; 05-24-20 at 08:30.

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