Pistol caliber carbines are winning my soul - and they should win yours too

[fred]

I really wouldn't worry about the bullets so much. I mean for about 20 years more or less Israel did a good job with full sized uzi with ball ammo. You put enough holes in someone in the right place, they drop dead.

I don't see an issue with 147 or 124 grain bullets, they both work pretty good. You should know the bullet drop of what ever your shooting out to 100 meters any way.

One more advantage to a small PCC, is riots. If you happen to get caught in a riot and your getting pulled out of your car, the small PCC are easier for you to keep tucked in close so you don't lose it. We had a few times where people were taken from their cars during the intifada and those with rifles had a harder time keeping them over guys with Uzi's. We only had a few incidents but that is what I remember.

If I get stopped in a riot, I will make it clear I was afraid for my life or grievous bodily harm, so I would shoot the closest person to me. Repeat as needed. Maybe I am just a pissed off guy, that is now having to deal with a flair up of a 25 year old on duty injury. More Scotch, please!

If you ever wrote a book, it would be a good one.

[Clint]

Is this to have commonality with the pistol and therefore better utility?

I just wish B&T would make a TP9 that takes CZ P09 mags.

From a technical standpoint, a double stack/double feed magazine is probably a better design for a sub gun mag, especially as capacity goes up.

The MP5, UZI, MPX, TP9/APC9 and CZ Scorpion all use this double feed type of course.

Double stack, single feed pistol magazines require an internal tapered cone, which adds friction.


The other factor is how magazine curvature handles case taper.

The MP5, MPX and CZS mags are curved, which allows rounds to stack properly along the entire length.

The UZI, TP9/APC9 and pistol mags are straight, which causes rounds to skew or tilt toward the bottom of the stack, which adds friction but allows the mag well inside the pistol grip.

[yoni]

The reason I would like to have the same mags is just for simplicity. I would be happy with the 21 or even the 19 round mags for the CZ, if I could get a PCC that used them.

But it isn't the end of the world, we have different mags for our rifles from our pistols, goes with out saying.

[Ron3]

Moving alone or with another person it's best to have your, bigger, better weapon concealed.

Have a pistol, too, concealed, and that is your go-to should you need a weapon immediately. Upon the first break or good cover that would be the time to ready the PCC / PDW. Have plenty of ammo for both. Ammunition and magazines low in weight and volume is nice.

If you are traveling with several armed people, sure, carry openly whatever you want. Looters / opportunists / robbers dont want to engage a squad of people with big guns.

[MountainRaven]

Moving alone or with another person it's best to have your, bigger, better weapon concealed.

Have a pistol, too, concealed, and that is your go-to should you need a weapon immediately. Upon the first break or good cover that would be the time to ready the PCC / PDW. Have plenty of ammo for both. Ammunition and magazines low in weight and volume is nice.

If you are traveling with several armed people, sure, carry openly whatever you want. Looters / opportunists / robbers dont want to engage a squad of people with big guns.

Just buy an Eagle shoulder rig for an MP5 or similar.

Job done.

[Jellybean]

If you are running a 16" barreled platform, then I say it for sure should be a rifle caliber.

MP5 is a cool gun, but I would rather have a SBR AR.

I endorse the use of small sized PCC, mini Uzi, MP5K, B&T various platforms.

You know, this coupled with your comment on the car/riot use actually makes some sense. You stop it with that, you're gonna cost me more money I don't have...
I was in the gun shop the other day, searching futilely for an M&P handgun, and I saw they had a couple B&T TP9s still on the wall, and I said to myself "you know, with the folding stock, that would be just the ticket for a bag-gun." Or something like a MAC10/mini-Uzi with the folder.


That being said, since we're sharing life experiences and thoughts on this topic;
I dabbled in an 11.5 AR pistol a while back; sold it because I had planned it's use for this exact sort of role- a rapid-deploy bag-gun for urban area in-car use in case I want to leave an area but idiocy is afoot. Ended up selling the uppers because, even slick (no light/sling/rds, Mlok rail) with an expensive-ass LAW folder, and the slickest brace I could find (Blade), it was fat as f*** and to long to fit in the size bag I wanted. And I'm talking about a MSM Adapt Pack, not even a handbag/messenger bag. With the LAW folded, it was like almost 2x ARs thick. Like, I could have just bought a damn X95/AUG and accomplished the same thing. So I'm sitting there with the thing like... nah.

I'm not dragging around a 20+ inch long pack with me everywhere; that's getting into hiking bag territory, not a vehicle go/bailout bag.
Can't put that in the front seat with me, it would have to be in the back, and if there's an outbreak of stupid at close quarters... maybe I can't get to my bag stored in the back (vehicle stuck in traffic/dead-ended/overturned/swarmed). Which means then I lose access to the better firepower I'm counting on over a handgun to "get off me bitch" the idiots causing the problems. I'd have to climb into the back seat and wrassle with the bag to get it out, at minimum...assuming I don't have a car-full of people and it's in the trunk or bed. In which case it might as well be on Mars.

Then once it's out...it's out. Like, I can't stick it back in the bag real quick after taking care of business, I'm going to be going all 'Fallujah in the USA' with essentially an SBR, bigass pack, and whatever other chest rig/mag bandolier I've thrown over my clothes. I'm going to have to wait til I've fought to a safe area to put any of it away... then I'm back to handgun only anyway, as there is no way to get it all back out on the fly if shit kicks off again. At minimum it's going to be "pistoleer my way to cover, toss pack on ground, pull out rifle, bangbangbang, pull out ammo and toss it on, bangbangbang some more, put pack back on, then F&M out of area." Maybe it's just me, but between that and in-car issues, that's a lot of moving parts to get 'caught in the middle' of in a close-quarters environment, where things are likely happening quickly and with little/no warning.
And I'm sure as hell not one of these dummies that's going to build a 8" 5.56 gun. #pointless

That being said... I also have found the current PCC craze to be a little... stupid. Most of them aren't that small, that light, and sure as hell don't do anything better than a rifle. I've always been of the school that if I'm going to carry a long gun, it better be be worth carrying. A pistol carbine/SMG isn't going to be super effective if the perps have even basic 2A soft armor or are further than 50-100 yards, or are in/behind most buildings or vehicles. And this is intended for use in an urban environment, where 2 of those three issues are always highly likely.
I also really don't get the "BuT YoU HaVe ThE SaMe AmMo FoR BoTh YoUr RiFlE AnD PiStOl" fanboys. Like, yeah, but it's still a f***ing 9 mil/40/45. In an SBR or Rifle-sized package. Like...no. Just no.
Then there's the size issue again, where a GHM9, Stribog, or EVO pistol, with sliding/folding brace in collapsed position, are STILL like 18-20" long. Only way I can see getting around that is a "K" edition of something like the APC9, MP5, or similar, all of which are, yet again, stupidly expensive.
Speaking of price... I'm in for a good AR at even a CZ Scorpion, since I will need a couple of the upgrades to make it work how I need, some sort of brace, plus proprietary mags at
$30 +/- each, then I've got to get some more gear to carry it with... We won't even talk about B&T's pricing. At least you can get a Glock compatible lower though, so you're not stuck with hard to find proprietary mags; not sure if that extra cost washes out just buying the B&T mags, but it's there I guess.

When you are already heavily invested in say, a 5.56 platform and the pistol brand of your choice, and you've had to put in work to get to that point, it gets hard to justify that sort of expenditure for a 'niche gun'.
At least if I invested in an X95/AUG, I can still use mags and gear I already have, and am still coming close to same (or slightly better) to initial cost for the gun itself. And I've got a full 16" 5.56 in either platform.
Unfortunately, that bullpup still has the same fitment/carriage/access issues as the 11.5 pistol I had, rendering it also a pointless investment, IMO.

It seems to me the whole PCC/SMG game is merely one of insane cost, dubious usefulness over a rifle or handgun, let alone dubious future legality given you must either brace it or SBR it, for them to be of any more effective use than a handgun.

So I have pretty much resigned myself to "upgrade to a better CCW gun and carry extra mags" and call it a day. Just in time for every f***er in the universe to go on a gun-buying spree. Typical. FML.

[FightinQ]

PCC's do nothing for me and since I don't Glock nor will I ever, so that argument for magazine commonality falls on legitimate deaf ears. Plus handgun cartridge terminal ballistics stink, there's a very good reason that most high speed low drag special unit types if not all had switched to carbines and left the SMG behind. The handgun gets me to a rifle, which has superior terminal effects. Plus rifle or PCC, doesn't matter in my state anyways as I can have both legally locked and loaded anywhere in any bag or exposed...so in that case, rifle it is.

And if the risk assessment is high, I'll switch from a single stack to a double stack if need be, and have a rifle with me. But generally I tend to not go out if things were to get that bad as was or is the case right now in cities where the trash likes to flock to, because they know that it's going to be a target rich environment.

[Evel Baldgui]

The question of which defensive firearm to have, be it, PCC, PDW, AR pistol, AR, even shotgun depends on the individuals need, skill, and maybe local laws. Given the current 'troubles' in various parts of the country, ones' needs may have to change. In the unlikely case one is entrapped in riot zone in Atlanta, Charlotte, Portland, Seattle or downtown LA, are you really going to shoot at targets 75 yds away or more ? Even 50yds away? I doubt it. Most likely within 25-30 yds would be my guess, IF that were to occur. A pistol and spare mags would suffice, as when gunshots occur mobs are likely to scatter. I've yet to see rioters run TO gunfire. Still, a PCC or AR pistol would be more of a deterrent. A glock 17 equipped RONI with attached 20 or 30 rd mag may be a good option here as well. My edc now is a G17 and 10.3" AR pistol, with spare mags, used to be a G19 only. To each his own.

[Ron3]

I agree a PCC intended to be used for travel should be very small. 4-5 inch barrels. Uzi pistol, TP9, Skorpion .32 (my choice), Scorpion Micro 9mm, Roni kit, those sized guns.

Otherwise a handgun and a backup handgun should work out fine. Bring lots of mags, too.

[Arik]

I agree a PCC intended to be used for travel should be very small. 4-5 inch barrels. Uzi pistol, TP9, Skorpion .32 (my choice), Scorpion Micro 9mm, Roni kit, those sized guns.

Otherwise a handgun and a backup handgun should work out fine. Bring lots of mags, too.

So basically a heavy handgun! What does a Uzi pistol or the chicken shooter skorpion offer over a G17?