Pistol caliber carbines are winning my soul - and they should win yours too

[PracticalRifleman]

Lucky Gunner article on 9mm loads from a 16" barrel. Personally I'll take the 124gr +P Gold Dots they show.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/s...iber-carbines/

Looking up some data, a 124gr +P JHP launching from a 16" barrel at ~1400fps should be around ~1130fps or so at 100yds. That would be the equivalent at 100yds of shooting someone point-blank with a standard pressure (non +P) bullet. I could live with that from a pistol round.

That seems all good and well, but what if the target is at 10 yards? Do you trust the bullet to be effective?

“9mm 124 gr Speer Gold Dot Carbine gel test results
The standard pressure 124-grain Gold Dots only penetrated 10 inches. The +Ps made it to 15 inches, but take a look at these bullets. This is beyond controlled expansion. This is uncontrolled deformation.

Expanded and deformed 9mm 124 gr Gold Dot ammo fired from carbine
Recovered bullets fired into Clear Ballistics bare gel from a 16.1″ Ruger PC Carbine.”

I believe the overall conclusion was that 147 gr loads were more consistent and predictable. That is consistent with other articles I’ve read over the years.


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[ABNAK]

That seems all good and well, but what if the target is at 10 yards? Do you trust the bullet to be effective?

“9mm 124 gr Speer Gold Dot Carbine gel test results
The standard pressure 124-grain Gold Dots only penetrated 10 inches. The +Ps made it to 15 inches, but take a look at these bullets. This is beyond controlled expansion. This is uncontrolled deformation.

Expanded and deformed 9mm 124 gr Gold Dot ammo fired from carbine
Recovered bullets fired into Clear Ballistics bare gel from a 16.1″ Ruger PC Carbine.”

I believe the overall conclusion was that 147 gr loads were more consistent and predictable. That is consistent with other articles I’ve read over the years.

Yes, especially the bonded ones like the Gold Dot. I could live with the results their pic showed of the +P bullets recovered. It expanded to .70 so that is certainly pretty good for a .355 diameter bullet.

You can't have perfect performance within the scope of a 100yd potential range. You said 10 yards, well that above-mentioned performance was not far from the muzzle I'm sure so close-in you're hitting with the power of a .357 Magnum or hot 357Sig. At 100yds you're hitting with the power of a standard pressure (non +P) 9mm JHP. For a pistol caliber that is a respectable spread of performance.

[PracticalRifleman]

Yes, especially the bonded ones like the Gold Dot. I could live with the results their pic showed of the +P bullets recovered. It expanded to .70 so that is certainly pretty good for a .355 diameter bullet.

You can't have perfect performance within the scope of a 100yd potential range. You said 10 yards, well that above-mentioned performance was not far from the muzzle I'm sure so close-in you're hitting with the power of a .357 Magnum or hot 357Sig. At 100yds you're hitting with the power of a standard pressure (non +P) 9mm JHP. For a pistol caliber that is a respectable spread of performance.

The .357 Sig and .357 Magnum have bullets designed for that type of velocity. I suppose one must determine if 100 yard threats are more likely than CQB. And if that is the case, perhaps it’s beyond the realm of a PCC.

What would he interesting is loads specific to 16” PCC which included bullets designed for such velocity.


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[yoni]

I really wouldn't worry about the bullets so much. I mean for about 20 years more or less Israel did a good job with full sized uzi with ball ammo. You put enough holes in someone in the right place, they drop dead.

I don't see an issue with 147 or 124 grain bullets, they both work pretty good. You should know the bullet drop of what ever your shooting out to 100 meters any way.

One more advantage to a small PCC, is riots. If you happen to get caught in a riot and your getting pulled out of your car, the small PCC are easier for you to keep tucked in close so you don't lose it. We had a few times where people were taken from their cars during the intifada and those with rifles had a harder time keeping them over guys with Uzi's. We only had a few incidents but that is what I remember.

If I get stopped in a riot, I will make it clear I was afraid for my life or grievous bodily harm, so I would shoot the closest person to me. Repeat as needed. Maybe I am just a pissed off guy, that is now having to deal with a flair up of a 25 year old on duty injury. More Scotch, please!

[ABNAK]

The .357 Sig and .357 Magnum have bullets designed for that type of velocity. I suppose one must determine if 100 yard threats are more likely than CQB. And if that is the case, perhaps it’s beyond the realm of a PCC.

What would he interesting is loads specific to 16” PCC which included bullets designed for such velocity.

Like I said, it performed pretty darn well (.70 expansion, 15" penetration, and held together) for a bullet far beyond it's designed velocity. I used 100yds as a max for the potential of a pistol cartridge from a longer barrel. Something like a full-on 10mm might extend that range a bit, but 100yds would be the max of what I'd expect to engage with a PCC, and even that is pushing it.

[ABNAK]

I really wouldn't worry about the bullets so much. I mean for about 20 years more or less Israel did a good job with full sized uzi with ball ammo. You put enough holes in someone in the right place, they drop dead.

I don't see an issue with 147 or 124 grain bullets, they both work pretty good. You should know the bullet drop of what ever your shooting out to 100 meters any way.

One more advantage to a small PCC, is riots. If you happen to get caught in a riot and your getting pulled out of your car, the small PCC are easier for you to keep tucked in close so you don't lose it. We had a few times where people were taken from their cars during the intifada and those with rifles had a harder time keeping them over guys with Uzi's. We only had a few incidents but that is what I remember.

If I get stopped in a riot, I will make it clear I was afraid for my life or grievous bodily harm, so I would shoot the closest person to me. Repeat as needed. Maybe I am just a pissed off guy, that is now having to deal with a flair up of a 25 year old on duty injury. More Scotch, please!

The irony of mentioning that today! A riot situation is exactly what I was thinking of when I read the PCC thread. The Sub2000, if folded, will fit into a laptop bag with a couple 33rd Glock mags. If you have to abandon your vehicle and di di mau, snap that sucker to full-length, pop in a Glock mag, stick the other in your back pocket, and GTFO. It's light, swings easily, and the average person should be more accurate with a "long gun" than a handgun.

I must say though that in TN you can legally carry a loaded long gun in your vehicle, so why not an M4-style 5.56? It obviously wouldn't fit in a laptop bag, and would be heavier than the Sub2000, but would be more powerful.

[ramairthree]

I have a kind of problem with PCC.

I can’t get over the urge to have same Mag rifle pistol combos.

I have a few 3rd Gen S&W 9mm pistols and a Marlin Camp9.

I have some .40 cal Beretta 96s and a Sub2000 that uses the same magazines.

I have 17, 19, and 26 Glocks and a Sub2000 that takes the 19 and longer mags, Plus the PAK9 AK thing that will take 26 and longer mags (the insert can be swapped for Beretta 92 mags).

I have a CX4 Storm with the PX4 insert and a SC, Compact, and full sized PX4 pistols. I used to have the Beretta 92 insert in,

But I bought a WC AR9 for those mags.

I am less infatuated with SMG/PCC Guns that use a dedicated magazine.

But they have the same advantage as the shared magazine ones.

Everyone on the Internet is a former Tier 1 operator that was the top shooter in their OTC class, a former SOF guy that wins state USPSA or three Gun matches every weekend, a SWAT instructor that is on the range training people and shooting a couple of hundred rounds themselves every day, or a got rich and retired at 30 business genius that plays on the private range shooting and getting instruction every day.

In the real world, there are very inexperienced shooters out there, and even experienced ones with less speed and accuracy than we would like.

PCCs are like crack. People not enjoying a pistol or carbine when introduced to shooting tend to really enjoy and take to shooting better with a PCC.

And a PCC with a RDS allows for some very effective shooting from people that would not be all that dangerous with a pistol.

They range from very flimsy, would not stand up at all to serious hard use like thenKelTecs and PAK9 types,
To decent duty If not hardcore like the Ruger and CX4,
To very expensive and hardcore quality.

The 70 year old retired engineer with some heart stents, coke bottle glasses, and arthritis may not have ever had serious pistol or rifle caliber training and experience. His neighborhood is getting worse, he is worried about a riot, break in, etc. He is not going to be climbing over walls, jumping from roof to roof, crawling under fences or butt stroking waves of infantry from the enemy horde.

A pistol, rifle caliber carbine, or shotgun may not be ideal or more effective in his hands vs a PCC.

[yoni]

You bring up older folks, my dad at a point in time told me his 12 ga pump was too much for him. So we went shooting together so he could try different guns, he shot AR, Uzi, MP5.

He picked the Uzi because of the grip safety. He kept a bullet in the tube and felt good to go, with safety off and just using the grip safety.

[Eurodriver]

Some of you guys just don’t understand how small some PCCs are.


10.3” BCM SBR and a B&T APC9k

Even if you put a LAW folder on the AR (which would more than double the thickness) it’s still almost 10” longer than the B&T.

I mean hell, the B&T isn’t much bigger than a G34 and Firefly pocket carries those

[docsherm]

Some of you guys just don’t understand how small some PCCs are.


10.3” BCM SBR and a B&T APC9k

Even if you put a LAW folder on the AR (which would more than double the thickness) it’s still almost 10” longer than the B&T.

I mean hell, the B&T isn’t much bigger than a G34 and Firefly pocket carries those

That looks awesome. Question for you, is it too small? By this i mean is it hard to get out of whatever bag you have it on?