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Thread: George Floyd and Minneapolis Police UoF - Rioting

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    Post George Floyd and Minneapolis Police UoF - Rioting

    This content was broken out from the thread on the islamic call to prayer in MSP. Keep it civil.

    Meanwhile, elsewhere in this great city of tolerance...

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    Quote Originally Posted by titsonritz View Post
    Meanwhile, elsewhere in this great city of tolerance...

    It's probably well known that I generally side with law enforcement by default (because I don't want to personally deal with all of the problem people of society if I don't have to) and I know the most dangerous criminals will say shit like "help me", "I can't breath" or whatever they think will get you to lower your guard for a couple seconds they need to do some horrible shit.

    I also know first hand that people under the influence are dangerous, unpredictable and often stronger than you might give them credit for and I really don't want anyone in LE risking themselves or other officers on behalf of some of these individuals...but we have to come up with better shit than that.

    How many legit people have died saying "I can't breath"? 5, 8 10? And if they aren't a murder, rape or some kind of other "lethal force threshold" suspect you can't kill people because they stole some shit from the 7-11, even if it was unintentional. All that is accomplished is fewer people trust law enforcement and as a result more are willing to resist arrest even over minor incidents because they don't trust you anymore than you trust them. More importantly, this shit just makes everyone else's job that much harder, including the cops who are doing things the correct way and still trying to actually "help people."

    Also at this point every LEO should consider themselves on video and act accordingly. That doesn't mean you have to act like Mister Rogers when dealing with a rapist but don't do anything that is going to help a rapist get the case tossed. Four cops lost their jobs over this incident. I don't know if they were good cops who made a horrible mistake or bad cops that needed to go, but they are gone just the same. Would have been better for everyone had they done things just a little bit better.

    I know we didn't see what led up to that, but we probably saw what killed the guy and I think they could have gotten him under control without having to do that. Just because it isn't 15 guys going Rodney King with impact weapons (which is also why most cops aren't allowed to have most of the compliance tools they used to possess) doesn't mean you are allowed to blood starve the brain.

    I get that it's still very possible he died as a result of drugs he "might" have been under the influence of but the cop on his neck was almost certainly a significant contributing factor if not the only reason he died. In the end this just results in more people bringing gasoline to the "us vs. them" bonfire.

    Once upon a time most places, even cities, managed to have actual community policing. I wonder if we can ever get back to that.
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    Not an easy video to watch considering you know the guy is slowly dying.

    Just my opinion, but I don't think there was any need to have the knee on his neck once the guy was cuffed. There were multiple officers there. Pick him up and put him in the back of a car. On drugs or not, the knee to the back of the neck was either the largest or the only contributing factor in that dude dying. One of the officers standing there should have at the very least noticed what was happening and started the process of getting the guy off the ground and into a squad car.
    Whiskey

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    Riots in Minneapolis: Death of George Floyd

    The death of George Floyd is latest spark for some riots and "I can't breath" mantra. As anyone know, those who can't breath can't say "I can't breath" but regardless, they fired the LEOs without an investigation based on the one short vid. It did appear excessive to keep him pinned in that manner for that amount of time (8 mins apparently) and no doubt meant to be very uncomfortable. Perhaps he had a heart attack, not clear, but the lengthy knee on neck thing no doubt contributed. Bad mojo. Of course media using it to stoke of racial tensions where ever possible and this one ignited a spark:


    https://www.stltoday.com/news/nation...3f76239.html#7
    Last edited by WillBrink; 05-27-20 at 08:43.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillBrink View Post
    The death of George Floyd is latest spark for some riots and "I can't breath" mantra. As anyone know, those who can't breath can't say "I can't breath" but regardless, they fired the LEOs without an investigation based on the one short vid. It did appear excessive to keep him pinned in that manner for that amount of time (8 mins apparently) and no doubt meant to be very uncomfortable. Perhaps he had a heart attack, not clear. Of course media using it to stoke of racial tensions where ever possible and this one ignited a spark:


    https://www.stltoday.com/news/nation...3f76239.html#7
    I have yet to see any mention of the fact that he has at least one felony conviction (theft) out of Houston, Texas.....Not surprising.
    "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe." Luke 11:21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esq. View Post
    I have yet to see any mention of the fact that he has at least one felony conviction (theft) out of Houston, Texas.....Not surprising.
    So that makes it okay to sit on a guy's neck with your knee for an extended period of time when he is handcuffed and laying in the street and saying he can't breathe? I'm not LEO but I assume that is not standard procedure. There were plenty of officers there, throw him in the back of a car and be done with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Life's a Hillary View Post
    So that makes it okay to sit on a guy's neck with your knee for an extended period of time when he is handcuffed and laying in the street and saying he can't breathe? I'm not LEO but I assume that is not standard procedure. There were plenty of officers there, throw him in the back of a car and be done with it.
    Not at all. But it provides context that is lacking in the sensationalized media use of the video. Does the video show that he fought with the officers before they took him to the ground? Did you know the guy was 46 years old, 6' 6 and 250 pounds and worked as a bouncer at clubs? Did you know that he was being accused of a forgery offense (theft) which is the same thing he had a felony conviction for here in Texas? Can you see any patterns of behavior in any of that that provide important context for the situation?

    Did you hear the exchange between the officer and Mr. Floyd where Floyd essentially asks for the officer to "let him get in" or something like that- the officer responds, "You had your chance"....That tells me that they did indeed ASK, then TELL, then FORCE him to comply...The video only shows a small part of the "FORCE" portion of the encounter..... Honestly, I don't have much sympathy for criminals that want to fight the police and then play the "police brutality" card when they get hurt etc....
    Last edited by Esq.; 05-27-20 at 09:05.
    "When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe." Luke 11:21

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    There are two videos out as I type. The first is the video of the suspect being restrained with an actual knee the side/back of his neck, this is the now infamous video. The second was released by the Washington Post which shows the initial contact and arrest of the suspect. It then shows him being walked to the patrol vehicle. If you look closely, there are signs of a struggle as you can see a lot of quick movement but it is out of focus. There is no audio in video two as it is an exterior security camera. I'm curious what took place at the patrol car, it will be on the body cams with audio. Per the FOP rep, all body cams were on and recording. I'm also waiting on the autopsy results and tox screen to see what, if anything he was on. There are some persons who are incapable of de-escalating themselves once spun up and require additional control methods, narcotics and alcohol use only makes this worse. From the WAPost video, I don't think this was an excited delirium case, having personally been involved in a couple myself. Through training I've heard of stimulant use combined with physical resistance and/or panic causing heart attacks. I can't help but wonder if this is what happened. People who have been to jail and don't want to go back can get really strange as you get closer to the car and reality sets in.

    I was never trained to actually put my knee on someone's neck, it was across the traps and shoulders to control the upper body, I have done it though when other methods have failed. I've had a knee in my neck like in the video for several minutes, it hurts and sucks and you can't get up if your hands are cuffed but it won't kill you unless the trachea is crushed. It does look bad and if your arrestee suddenly stops fighting and yelling you need to be concerned as you are responsible for them. Not a good time to keep leaning on the suspect. The autopsy results will be important. Use of force never looks good on video. There are still more questions than answers right now and the mayor seriously over-reacted.

    To think this could have all been prevented if Floyd didn't commit a crime, then resist officers making a lawful arrest but no one seems to want to talk about that. Instead the internet famous and other self-righteous cops are calling these guys cowards, killers, etc without any answers to a lot of questions.
    Reads a lot, posts little.

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    Part of the problem if not the problem is that LEO training has gone from proper training for practical everyday aspects of the job to satisfying the politically correct cultural demands that now exist. Hence, a lot of LEOs don't know how to properly respond to UOF situations. Knee on the neck should be a common sense thing IMHO. If you're not taught proper ways of restraining an individual, you'll have these results. Another sad situation all the way around.
    Repression Is Nine Tenths The Law

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    Quote Originally Posted by WillBrink View Post
    The death of George Floyd is latest spark for some riots and "I can't breath" mantra. As anyone know, those who can't breath can't say "I can't breath" but regardless, they fired the LEOs without an investigation based on the one short vid. It did appear excessive to keep him pinned in that manner for that amount of time (8 mins apparently) and no doubt meant to be very uncomfortable. Perhaps he had a heart attack, not clear, but the lengthy knee on neck thing no doubt contributed. Bad mojo. Of course media using it to stoke of racial tensions where ever possible and this one ignited a spark:


    https://www.stltoday.com/news/nation...3f76239.html#7

    That is an assertion that has been taught by many LE agencies over the years but is in fact not true. The outcome of this current situation supports that to some degree.
    From Cutting Edge Training, their commentary on the video:

    According to the media reports, Minneapolis police officers encountered a black male adult sitting in his car who was suspected of being under the influence of a controlled substance. Officers attempted to arrest him and he reportedly physically resisted arrest. No force tools were used before taking him to the ground and handcuffing him. For approximately 8 minutes, an officer, hand in his pant's pocket, knelt on the subject's neck while the prisoner repeatedly said he couldn't breathe. An ambulance arrived, showing officers had earlier requested EMS response. By the time the gurney arrived, the subject was unresponsive. The officer removed his knee from the subject's neck, then roughly yanked and dragged him over to be put on the gurney. The suspect died in police custody.

    Times have changed. It is past time to change with the times.

    Without seeing the autopsy or toxicology report, all we can do is speculate as to the cause of death. What we can be pretty much assured about is the man was not "suffocated" by the officer's knee on the suspect's neck. The subject was able to repeatedly speak, therefore his trachea was not occluded.

    Drugs plus physical exertion during an arrest often points to excited delirium and sudden death absent injuries pointing to a different conclusion. First described in 1849 by Dr. Luther Bell as "Bell's Mania," he observed, among other symptoms, "The course of the illness is from three to six weeks, with a fatal termination in a large percentage of cases, apparently from cardio-vascular failure due to overactivity."

    While it is not likely this or other officers "killed" this man, was there a better way to address this arrest that might have better served the public interest?

    In the 1970s and 80s, when the public's drug use changed, LE encountered sudden in-custody deaths. The deaths of suspects during forceful arrests were wrongly attributed during various phases to the carotid restraint, OC spray, TASERs, and positional asphyxia. Excited delirium, the latest understanding that began with Dr. Bell's description, is now understood by those who seek understanding of the cause of death of those who are mentally ill and/or under the influence of drugs who physically resist arrest beyond a body's physical limits and die, yet have no obvious cause of death at autopsy.

    Like that seen in the death of Eric Garner in New York, this individual complained repeatedly that he couldn't breathe. In the past, officer were trained, "If he can talk, he can breathe." THAT IS NOT TRUE.

    To breathe requires the body to perform two tasks, to breathe in and out deeply enough (inspiration and exhalation) to achieve sufficient gas exchange within the lungs to keep the body's cells supplied with oxygen to support life. Through very shallow breaths, humans can push enough air through their larynx (or voicebox) to speak without achieving even minimal gas exchange.

    CURRENT DOCTRINE: If a subject says, "I can't breathe," interpret that to mean, "I'm dying." The individual may not have the mental capacity or capability to discern they are having a heart attack or respiratory failure. This is a medical emergency. If it is safe, radio for emergency medical response. If the subject is unrestrained and still physically resisting, quickly handcuff him/her. Then roll the subject into a either seated position or a rescue position (on his side). Monitor closely and prepare to initiate CPR.

    As soon as a subject is cuffed, remove all body weight from the core of his torso and neck/head. The appearance of the Minneapolis officer who restrained the suspect in the video presented a very difficult to defend perceived of the continuing need to restrain the subject: the officer's hand was casually in his pocket for much of the video, his face was relaxed until bystanders appeared to be approaching too closely. This will be portrayed as callous, deliberate indifference to the man's life and safety. When facing a District Attorney investigator during a police-involved death investigation, and later a jury (criminal or civil), imagine the difficulty in convincing jurors that there was little effect on the outcome of the subject's death from body weight applied to their torso or neck. While that may be the fact, people want simple answers to complex problems. The public, jurors, district attorneys, US attorneys, and many police administrators often apply the belief that " the last one who touched the deceased likely killed him."

    Body weight to any area of the body during an actively resisting arrest is necessary to control the subject to handcuff him. Following handcuffing, body weight should be immediately removed from the neck, spine (from top of the spine to mid-back) area of the subject. If he
    continues struggling/kicking/biting, body weight can be applied to the periphery of his body and limbs: his upper arms, shoulders, and buttocks, lessening the appearance of interfering with his breathing. If he is slamming or grinding his head or face into the ground, protect him by cradling it in your hands.

    The suggestions in this post are often seen, correctly, as preventing the appearance of misconduct and deliberate indifference than rather preventing actual misconduct. That is very true. And also immaterial to your continuing in your career or possibly avoiding criminal indictment. Those who protest that appearances should not dictate police methods have likely not been forced to defend their actions in a politically-charged environment where incendiary comments are readily believed by many who have been persuaded by emotion rather than by fact.

    Change is tough. Change is constant. The results of failing to change is a cliche of history. Since the late 1990s, officers have been urged to put body weight on a resisting suspect only until the suspect is cuffed, and only peripherally if he remains violent or attempts to harm himself. These officers in Minneapolis, the one kneeling on the man's neck as well as the officer who failed to intervene and tell him to get off the suspect's neck, will like experience the effects of failing to change. They already are.

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