George Floyd and Minneapolis Police UoF - Rioting

[ABNAK]

That is an assertion that has been taught by many LE agencies over the years but is in fact not true. The outcome of this current situation supports that to some degree.

I agree. I am in the medical field, in fact one directly involved with breathing. You can hypoventilate and ultimately have the same effect as having your airway completely cut off, it just takes longer. But you can still suffocate.

Once someone is cuffed and restrained prolonged kneeling on the back or neck ain't good. Saying you can't breathe does NOT mean that you can (adequately anyway).

EDIT: I would like to add that the above is especially true when that person's heart rate is elevated to begin with, which it no doubt was due to the struggle with the cops. The higher the heart rate the more oxygen is consumed and needed to be inhaled and more CO2 is produced to be blown off, neither of which happens sufficiently when someone is basically suffocating.

[Esq.]

I agree. I am in the medical field, in fact one directly involved with breathing. You can hypoventilate and ultimately have the same effect as having your airway completely cut off, it just takes longer. But you can still suffocate.

Once someone is cuffed and restrained prolonged kneeling on the back or neck ain't good. Saying you can't breathe does NOT mean that you can (adequately anyway).

This alone was worth my time here today! Thank you.

[WillBrink]

There are two videos out as I type. The first is the video of the suspect being restrained with an actual knee the side/back of his neck, this is the now infamous video. The second was released by the Washington Post which shows the initial contact and arrest of the suspect. It then shows him being walked to the patrol vehicle. If you look closely, there are signs of a struggle as you can see a lot of quick movement but it is out of focus. There is no audio in video two as it is an exterior security camera. I'm curious what took place at the patrol car, it will be on the body cams with audio. Per the FOP rep, all body cams were on and recording. I'm also waiting on the autopsy results and tox screen to see what, if anything he was on. There are some persons who are incapable of de-escalating themselves once spun up and require additional control methods, narcotics and alcohol use only makes this worse. From the WAPost video, I don't think this was an excited delirium case, having personally been involved in a couple myself. Through training I've heard of stimulant use combined with physical resistance and/or panic causing heart attacks. I can't help but wonder if this is what happened. People who have been to jail and don't want to go back can get really strange as you get closer to the car and reality sets in.

I was never trained to actually put my knee on someone's neck, it was across the traps and shoulders to control the upper body, I have done it though when other methods have failed. I've had a knee in my neck like in the video for several minutes, it hurts and sucks and you can't get up if your hands are cuffed but it won't kill you unless the trachea is crushed. It does look bad and if your arrestee suddenly stops fighting and yelling you need to be concerned as you are responsible for them. Not a good time to keep leaning on the suspect. The autopsy results will be important. Use of force never looks good on video. There are still more questions than answers right now and the mayor seriously over-reacted.

To think this could have all been prevented if Floyd didn't commit a crime, then resist officers making a lawful arrest but no one seems to want to talk about that. Instead the internet famous and other self-righteous cops are calling these guys cowards, killers, etc without any answers to a lot of questions.

That's the aspect that was most concerning and what will likely determined what happens next charges wise. 8 minutes, a good % of that he was no longer moving at all, seems excessive and looks bad on vid, and that's all most will care about.

[WillBrink]

That is an assertion that has been taught by many LE agencies over the years but is in fact not true. The outcome of this current situation supports that to some degree.

I agree. I am in the medical field, in fact one directly involved with breathing. You can hypoventilate and ultimately have the same effect as having your airway completely cut off, it just takes longer. But you can still suffocate.

Once someone is cuffed and restrained prolonged kneeling on the back or neck ain't good. Saying you can't breathe does NOT mean that you can (adequately anyway).

Good intel gents, thanx. I stand corrected.

[mrbieler]

That's the aspect that was most concerning and what will likely determined what happens next charges wise. 8 minutes, a good % of that he was no longer moving at all, seems excessive and looks bad on vid, and that's all most will care about.

And we should. Casual indifference killed a man over a bad check.

[GTF425]

Saying you can't breathe does NOT mean that you can (adequately anyway).

Holy crap, this.

All producing speech means is patency of airflow and structures in the larynx. While we generalize and make statements like "a crying baby is a good thing" and "if you can talk, respirations are adequate" when referring to airway patency in an assessment, the overwhelmingly abused and misunderstood belief that talking = breathing is an ignorant approach to patient care.

I know that you understand this in your profession (and FWIW; people with your cert are who I take every opportunity to shadow and talk vent management with), but I've seen that attitude taken on the 911 side while restraining or monitoring a restrained patient. It's negligence at best, and at worst can lead to outcomes like Mr. Floyd.

ETA: I purposefully made it a point to insure that any LE bodycams on scene were "on" before applying chemical or physical restraints and made sure at all times to verbalize not to compress anyone's neck, not to place weight on their chest or back, etc. Specifically for this reason; I'm not trying to hurt you and I want this done as efficiently and safely as possible with as much objective proof that every effort is being made to insure this is happening.

[Vic79]

Sucks for him. Wouldn’t of happened if he cuffed up when it was requested. Wouldn’t have happened if he was at a normal “legal” job.Wouldn’t of happened if he didn’t resist arrest.From the video I saw it doesn’t look like his airway was ever restricted. Will be interesting to see what the toxicology report comes back as.

[yoni]

It would have happened if the dead guy hadn't committed a crime, doesn't work for me.

As a police officer your job is to get criminals off the street. You need to do it with the least amount of force possible, as the criminals your arrest are still American citizens. I say that having had officer involved shootings, and even ran over a couple of people with my car.

Look even when chasing terrorist which back in the day had no rights, we had some terrorist we wanted alive for the intelligence that could be produced.

What I saw of the video the guy was not fighting, I understand he was in cuffs. If both of these are true, then I would not have any problems convicting the officer of homicide.

[Vandal]

It would have happened if the dead guy hadn't committed a crime, doesn't work for me.

As a police officer your job is to get criminals off the street. You need to do it with the least amount of force possible, as the criminals your arrest are still American citizens.

To directly quote my own UoF reports: "no reasonably effective alternative to the use of force appeared to exist and that the amount of force used was reasonable to effect the lawful purpose intended."

Force must be necessary and reasonable, reasonable being based on the reasonable officer standard not what is reasonable to Stay Home Mom Suzy. In my state, we have even go so far as to define "necessary" in our laws, see my UoF quote above. I'm preaching to the choir with you, but there are others who don't know or understand how that standard is judged. I think it's why a lot of cops, myself included, are pissed at this incident. I want to know more about what occurred including seeing the body cams and autopsy report. At the same time I can't comprehend keeping my knee in a guy's neck for nearly 10 minutes when he's under control with three other cops on scene. I will not be surprised if he is charged federally for civil rights violations.

[TomMcC]

That just looks and sounds cruel.