Trust Advantage?

[Devildawg2531]

I have read a bunch about this subject but don't really understand the advantage. After resisting for years I'm leaning towards getting 2 suppressors. I've never owned any items that need tax stamps.

What are the advantages of getting a trust for NFA items?
I live in Georgia if that makes a difference.
Can the same trust be used to handle my estate after my death? (I'm healthy but have kids and would like to transfer my assets to them upon my passing)

Advantages / disadvantages of getting a trust would be greatly appreciated.
What type of lawyer is recommended for creation of a trust for this?

[gunnerblue]

One of the biggest benefits used to be that if you went through a trust, you didn't need the Chief Law Enforcement Officer sign off. This was especially beneficial to those of us living in more restrictive jurisdictions. The CLEO sign off is no longer required, though. Another benefit was having someone such as tourbspouse listed as a trustee. This way in the event of your death, your husband/wife wouldn't suddenly be in possession of restricted items. Ive never heard of this being enforced, and anyways there is an ATF form for this situation.

I established a trust years ago and will likely still use to keep all of my NFA items in one spot

[thei3ug]

tl;dr Trust can live on. Trust avoids estate on death. items pass to beneficiaries without double tax. trustees can possess items (instead of just you). go to a reputable dealer that sells standard language trusts.

typical trust benefits. the trust can remain for the length state law allows, allowing trustees to exercise possession (see below). Your property will pass as though through a regular trust. 27 C.F.R. § 479.90a allows NFA trust property to pass through without a double tax, the executor of the trust files an ATF Form 5.

Another perk: Legal Possession of trust property by multiple people, defined by 41F as "responsible persons." RPs must fill out ATF Form 5320.23. Includes a photo and fingerprint card. Beneficiaries must have some other administrative role in the trust to be an RP.

The legal profession is shifting hard to self service for items like trusts. Hiring a lawyer to draft a trust is overkill unless you're the heir to the Campbell's Soup fortune. There are a few boutique turnkey NFA trust services. Many dealers also offer boilerplate NFA trusts.

Do not copy and paste someone else's trust from the internet. Remember, your state law governs the formation of trusts. verify the state law meets your objective for the trust, and that the company you're purchasing the trust from addresses the state law. Typically dealers and boutique self service firms will provide instructions on how to form your trust and the applicable state law.

[GeneralPurpose]

tl;dr Trust can live on. Trust avoids estate on death. items pass to beneficiaries without double tax. trustees can possess items (instead of just you). go to a reputable dealer that sells standard language trusts.

typical trust benefits. the trust can remain for the length state law allows, allowing trustees to exercise possession (see below). Your property will pass as though through a regular trust. 27 C.F.R. § 479.90a allows NFA trust property to pass through without a double tax, the executor of the trust files an ATF Form 5.

What do you mean by double tax?

An ATF Form 5 can be used to transfer tax-free from a deceased individual to an heir. It doesn't require a trust. Trust salesmen have touted for years that one of the benefits of a trust is tax-free transfer upon death, but that's not unique to a trust.

ETA: I have a trust, there's a handful of advantages like being able to have multiple responsible parties as outlined above. I would assume it could also help if you get sued, divorced, etc. since the trust owns the item rather than you as an individual. When I got my trust, the advantage of doing so was avoiding the CLEO sign-off. Now I feel like it doesn't matter much if you own them as an individual or as a trust. I do think a trust is worth the ~$50 I paid for it. I don't think it's worth the ~$250 that some people have paid.

[el_chupo_]

Depends on your situation and plans. My reasons were multiple trustees able to possess outside of my supervision, so my wife and father are on the trust. For form 1s, trust name engraved instead of my name. When created, no CLEO signoff.

Not all advantages still apply, but (to me) the first alone makes it more than worthwhile.

[ndmiller]

Depends on your situation and plans. My reasons were multiple trustees able to possess outside of my supervision, so my wife and father are on the trust. For form 1s, trust name engraved instead of my name. When created, no CLEO signoff.

Not all advantages still apply, but (to me) the first alone makes it more than worthwhile.

+1, entire family is on trust including small children along with clauses that add other relatives and gun collection to my trust upon my demise. This way when I go multiple people can either use the items NFA or NON, or sell them off as they see fit without any BS.

I can travel to shoot with my dad and leave stuff at his house for next trip if I like or take NFA home with me. He wants me to leave him a suppressor for a month, no problem. Allows options to avoid issues dumb NFA laws create to make people criminals instantly. The price was a fraction of the value of NFA and Non-NFA items. Used to allow E-file form 1's to approve in a few weeks although not sure if E-file form 1's are still around.

[Devildawg2531]

What do you mean by double tax?

An ATF Form 5 can be used to transfer tax-free from a deceased individual to an heir. It doesn't require a trust. Trust salesmen have touted for years that one of the benefits of a trust is tax-free transfer upon death, but that's not unique to a trust.

ETA: I have a trust, there's a handful of advantages like being able to have multiple responsible parties as outlined above. I would assume it could also help if you get sued, divorced, etc. since the trust owns the item rather than you as an individual. When I got my trust, the advantage of doing so was avoiding the CLEO sign-off. Now I feel like it doesn't matter much if you own them as an individual or as a trust. I do think a trust is worth the ~$50 I paid for it. I don't think it's worth the ~$250 that some people have paid.

Very good information guys and I much appreciate it.
where were you able to get a trust set up for $50?
Are their on line trust sources that are recommended for this?
Can you easily add future acquired items to the trust?

[ndmiller]

Very good information guys and I much appreciate it.
where were you able to get a trust set up for $50?
Are their on line trust sources that are recommended for this?
Can you easily add future acquired items to the trust?

My case was pretty specialized with other assets and considerations upon death of me and or my wife, so no $50. Simple stiff isn't expensive, so definitely under $100 should cover it, a few online sites promote a few versions of their easy NFA trusts.

Adding items is as easy as adding forms to your trust document an adding the item to your trust inventory page. Mine are in Word and Excel, so once I get the approvals, I add them (print, PDF pages for online copy).

Noah

[thei3ug]

What do you mean by double tax?

I bring it up because OP seemed to seek info for the first time, and because for years people falsely claimed that the trust was a separate legal entity, and when assets were transferred out, the beneficiaries would have to pay a second $200 tax. The ATF gave verbals but faith was lacking. It is now explicitly part of the regulation (see above). I mention it here are still old pages that claim otherwise.

also, as a person who makes a living in this industry, keeping the schedule A current is a property concern, not an ATF enforcement one.

The materials posted on this web site are for informational purposes only and not for the purpose of providing legal advice.

[GeneralPurpose]

Thanks for sharing. As I said my Trust has assets listed on it's Schedule A, critically important legal document to showing what Trustees have legal access to for legal purposes.

If your trust is set up as such, then it would definitely be advisable to keep it updated. Understanding mis-matched paperwork, especially after the person who knows everything about it has died, would just be an obstacle that doesn't need to happen. However, if the Form 1/4 says "ndmiller trust", and the trust lists the people who are on the trust, then that should close the loop on who has access for legal purposes. As an example, my trust doesn't have a schedule because it isn't structured that way. I prefer that structure, because I don't have to coordinate documents. The Form 1/4 is the end of the story on who has legal access.

I bring it up because OP seemed to seek info for the first time, and because for years people falsely claimed that the trust was a separate legal entity, and when assets were transferred out, the beneficiaries would have to pay a second $200 tax. The ATF gave verbals but faith was lacking. It is now explicitly part of the regulation (see above). I mention it here are still old pages that claim otherwise.

also, as a person who makes a living in this industry, keeping the schedule A current is a property concern, not an ATF enforcement one.

The materials posted on this web site are for informational purposes only and not for the purpose of providing legal advice.

Thanks for the clarification, I see what you mean. I was reading the regulation you cited, so the double-tax thing wasn't making sense.