Dr. Voddie Baucham: Ethnic Gnosticism otherwise known as racism in America

[TomMcC]

Calvinist doctrine:

Total Depravity: Human beings are completely sinful and depraved and incapable of asking for redemption.
Unconditional Election: God predestined all who will be saved and all who will be condemned; basically, nobody "chooses" to become a Christian or not to be a Christian.
Limited Atonement: Jesus didn't come to save everybody, he only came to save the predestined.
Irristable Grace: If you were predestined, once God calls you, you will inevitably believe and follow Him.
Preservation of Saints: Nothing can make the predestined lose their salvation. Anybody who denounces their faith is determined to have never truly believed in the first place.

Calvinism is central to Presbyterian theology, but it's also taught in congregational churches and some small baptist denominations. Most other denominations either reject Calvinism outright, or take Calvin's theories as one of many commentaries on Protestant theology and nothing more.

I'm not a Calvinist and I have serious issues with the doctrine taken as a whole. I also take issue with the fact that a lot of Presbyterian churches and thinkers tend to be anti-Israel and anti-Judaism. Not antisemitic; they don't hate Jews, but they do believe that God has rejected Israel and that the church is the "new Israel." Basically, the Jews have no further role to play in God's plan. My late Presbyterian granddad felt this way.

While I do believe that there are things that are destined to happen, and God does call some more persistently than others, I believe the call for salvation is universal. I also don't believe in fate-by-another-name; that is, that everything, good and bad, that happens, God wrote in the timeline before he create the world, and everything we do was fated to happen.

And we don't. Of course any Christian should reject Judaism simply because it rejects Jesus. But some Reformed churches uphold the idea that God is not finished with national Israel. It's just that God's plan would incorporate the Jews into the church universal. Your description of Calvinism as "fate" of some sort is in serious error. God controls and has purposed everything that comes to past....that's not fate.

[TomMcC]

Voddie is a Calvinist when it comes to the doctrines of salvation, but he is not Reformed.

[georgeib]

Reformed theology is the essential belief that God is completely sovereign. If God is not absolutely sovereign; He isn't God.

People take issue with it because they want to believe that they are somehow instrumental in their salvation. Unfortunately, the Scripture simply doesn't support this position.

The idea that His purposes can be thwarted by man's will, is based on an inadequate understanding of who the Scriptures show Him to be.

Without getting into a lengthy discource, it would be easier for any who have questions about what TULIP means to read this succinct explanation:

http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_41.html

[TomMcC]

Reformed theology is the essential belief that God is completely sovereign. If God is not absolutely sovereign; He isn't God.

People take issue with it because they want to believe that they are somehow instrumental in their salvation. Unfortunately, the Scripture simply doesn't support this position.

The idea that His purposes can be thwarted by man's will, is based on an inadequate understanding of who the Scriptures show Him to be.

Without getting into a lengthy discource, it would be easier for any who have questions about what TULIP means to read this succinct explanation:

http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_41.html

I think the scriptures would overwhelming support what you have said.

[BoringGuy45]

And we don't. Of course any Christian should reject Judaism simply because it rejects Jesus. But some Reformed churches uphold the idea that God is not finished with national Israel. It's just that God's plan would incorporate the Jews into the church universal. Your description of Calvinism as "fate" of some sort is in serious error. God controls and has purposed everything that comes to past....that's not fate.

That's fate by another name. That's where I believe Calvin was wrong. I also don't believe that God purposes everything that comes to pass. That would suggest that God is also the author of evil. God uses everything that comes to pass, but that doesn't mean he planned everything.

Also, we Christians should embrace Judaism as our wellspring. God is not going to incorporate the Jews into the church; rather, the church has been incorporated into Israel. John 4:22: You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. This doesn't mean that we must therefore hold to all Jewish laws and customs as Christians, nor does it mean we have to adhere to modern Jewish theology. But what it does mean is to see God through Jewish, rather than gentile, eyes.

[Cold/Bore]

Keep listening, maybe he'll get you to believe TULIP eventually. Lol

Off topic. This thread started out good until someone had to derail it with divisive theological comment. I hope this doesn’t devolve any further into a debate over pedobaptism or women wearing head coverings.

[TomMcC]

Off topic. This thread started out good until someone had to derail it with divisive theological comment. I hope this doesn’t devolve any further into a debate over pedobaptism or women wearing head coverings.

This thread wasn't going much of anywhere, what a whole 3 guys commented on the videos in a week? My comment was tongue in cheek since the guys that did comment are free-willers and Voddie is a Calvinist. I guess even Calvinists get something right once in a while.

[TomMcC]

That's fate by another name. That's where I believe Calvin was wrong. I also don't believe that God purposes everything that comes to pass. That would suggest that God is also the author of evil. God uses everything that comes to pass, but that doesn't mean he planned everything.

Also, we Christians should embrace Judaism as our wellspring. God is not going to incorporate the Jews into the church; rather, the church has been incorporated into Israel. John 4:22: You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. This doesn't mean that we must therefore hold to all Jewish laws and customs as Christians, nor does it mean we have to adhere to modern Jewish theology. But what it does mean is to see God through Jewish, rather than gentile, eyes.

Fate is driven by impersonal forces. And it wasn't just Calvin that was a theological determinist, it was pretty much every reformer, pastor and elder of the 1st and 2nd reformation, they were all Augustinians in nature and theology. If God doesn't purpose all things, knowing the beginning from the end, working all things after the counsel of His own will, and upholding all things by the word of His power, then who is? What power besides God is there? Duality isn't biblical. To me your thoughts of God are too lowly. It sounds like you are denying His omniscience and omnipotence, His mind is as infinite as His being. As for the origin of evil, how can it not originate with God? He has a purpose for everything including evil and how exactly are you using "author"? I use it to mean He doesn't actually do evil. From where evil come then? Again, what power is there beside God?

You make a false assumption concerning Israel and Judaism. The Judaism of 2000 years ago to present isn't the same as practiced by Moses. Christ said as much when He told the Jews of His day that if they believed Moses they would believe Him, they didn't believe either for the most part. It is true that God used the Jewish nation to advance much of His plan of salvation, and that in one sense the church in the OT and NT had it's roots in TRUE Israel, but the Nation for all intents and purposes perished in 70 AD. The Israel of today is comprised of mostly unbelievers. Not all Israel is truly is truly Israel as Paul says. And what Jewish eyes see clearly today? Paul says they read Moses with a veil over their eyes. I would except those Jewish brethren that do in fact understand and believe the gospel. The church from Adam and Eve to today has always believed in the coming messiah or the come messiah.

[TexHill]

Would a moderator please delete everything from post 5 on as those posts don't relate to the original intent of this thread. Thank you.

[BoringGuy45]

Fate is driven by impersonal forces. And it wasn't just Calvin that was a theological determinist, it was pretty much every reformer, pastor and elder of the 1st and 2nd reformation, they were all Augustinians in nature and theology. If God doesn't purpose all things, knowing the beginning from the end, working all things after the counsel of His own will, and upholding all things by the word of His power, then who is? What power besides God is there? Duality isn't biblical. To me your thoughts of God are too lowly. It sounds like you are denying His omniscience and omnipotence, His mind is as infinite as His being.

God is in control. That doesn't mean He micromanages. God has a sovereignty that we can't fathom. There is nothing outside of his control. That doesn't mean he authors everything. And to the contrary, I feel that my view makes God all the greater. He is in control of not one flow of time that he planned out to the T; He sees the trillions upon trillions of possibilities that can happen in the vast universe he created and no matter what happens, nothing will thwart his purposes. I believe that God has a gameplan, rather than a blueprint, for our lives, to paraphrase Larry Osborne.

Also, it doesn't matter if Calvin and the other reformers were determinists or not. It doesn't matter if they followed the philosophy of Augustine or not. Augustine's works are not scripture; they are a commentary on scripture. A Christian can pick and choose from his views, as well as Calvin's views, with which they agree and disagree.

You make a false assumption concerning Israel and Judaism. The Judaism of 2000 years ago to present isn't the same as practiced by Moses. Christ said as much when He told the Jews of His day that if they believed Moses they would believe Him, they didn't believe either for the most part. It is true that God used the Jewish nation to advance much of His plan of salvation, and that in one sense the church in the OT and NT had it's roots in TRUE Israel, but the Nation for all intents and purposes perished in 70 AD. The Israel of today is comprised of most unbelievers. Not all Israel is truly is truly Israel as Paul says. And what Jewish eyes see clearly today? Paul says they read Moses with a veil over their eyes. I would except those Jewish brethren that do in fact understand and believe the gospel. The church from Adam and Eve to today has always believed in the coming messiah or the come messiah.

I believe the book of Hosea lays out God's continued pursuit of Israel and makes my point.


Anyway, I've said my peace and why I believe what I believe. You're a Presbyterian, and so you believe in Calvinism. I am not. Agree to disagree.