good ol days of training over?

[Esq.]

I'm not seeing that at all. There is a bunch of training going on. Within the next two months Spencer Keepers will be here, Gamut Resolutions and also Sage Dynamics- and I'm in BFE, Texas. There were also two different "contractors" brought in in the last 3 months for various Church Security groups in town.

[SeriousStudent]

I am a training junkie. I usually do between 10-12 classes a year. Last fall I went nine straight weekends, and four of those nine were instructor-level certification classes.

And what do I see? Usually the same people. Not kidding, I was in a shotgun instructor class in October, and I knew all but two of the 14 students, and had been in multiple classes with most. Everybody is shaking hands and playing the "where do I know you from" game.

Ernest Langdon was here two weeks ago, and I went by the class to bring some ice water and Gatorade, since it was over 100 that day. Plus, I just wanted to BS with him, he's a terrific guy. Sure enough, I ended up shaking hands with four guys I knew as we swept up the range.

So you have a lot of people that will take one or two classes, and that fulfills their needs. Then you have crazy people like most of the mods/staff here who are either take or putting on classes multiple times. A month.

There are a LOT of private Facebook groups now for trainers and their alumni. I am part of four of them.

[SteyrAUG]

I am a training junkie. I usually do between 10-12 classes a year. Last fall I went nine straight weekends, and four of those nine were instructor-level certification classes.

And what do I see? Usually the same people. Not kidding, I was in a shotgun instructor class in October, and I knew all but two of the 14 students, and had been in multiple classes with most. Everybody is shaking hands and playing the "where do I know you from" game.

Ernest Langdon was here two weeks ago, and I went by the class to bring some ice water and Gatorade, since it was over 100 that day. Plus, I just wanted to BS with him, he's a terrific guy. Sure enough, I ended up shaking hands with four guys I knew as we swept up the range.

So you have a lot of people that will take one or two classes, and that fulfills their needs. Then you have crazy people like most of the mods/staff here who are either take or putting on classes multiple times. A month.

There are a LOT of private Facebook groups now for trainers and their alumni. I am part of four of them.

So serious question, doing classes once a month, how much new "didn't know that before" material do you actually get from each class?

I don't think I've ever trained with someone where I didn't get something new, even if it was only unique perspective on something I had been shown before but I have so much "info" to work with now that I need time spent developing it or maintaining it.

[jpmuscle]

Not for nothing but one doesn’t really need a class to work the fundamentals across a huge spectrum of performs metrics, drills and specific weapon manipulations. Deliberately focused training sessions, a shot timer, a cell phone for video can accomplish a lot. Initial exposure to the fundamentals notwithstanding.

It boils down to grip, sight alignment, and trigger press. Everything else serves to support those core functions.

Getting into training with multiple shooters, team tactics, and scenario based stuff is a different story obviously but you can absolutely make yourself a more competent shooter without paying someone else to teach you how.

My 2 cents


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[chuckman]

So serious question, doing classes once a month, how much new "didn't know that before" material do you actually get from each class?

I don't think I've ever trained with someone where I didn't get something new, even if it was only unique perspective on something I had been shown before but I have so much "info" to work with now that I need time spent developing it or maintaining it.

I have taken the same classes with the same instructors and learned something new every single time (for example, 2-day pistol with Vickers). I love going back every so often and taking a fundamentals, basic, entry-level class. Many other classes just go so fast you simply don't have time to correct something that may not be 'quite right'.

[Hank6046]

Not for nothing but one doesn’t really need a class to work the fundamentals across a huge spectrum of performs metrics, drills and specific weapon manipulations. Deliberately focused training sessions, a shot timer, a cell phone for video can accomplish a lot. Initial exposure to the fundamentals notwithstanding.

It boils down to grip, sight alignment, and trigger press. Everything else serves to support those core functions.

Getting into training with multiple shooters, team tactics, and scenario based stuff is a different story obviously but you can absolutely make yourself a more competent shooter without paying someone else to teach you how.

My 2 cents


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I would tend to agree to a point. I have heard of a lot of USPSA shooters using coach's eye or other apps that record you so you can review your draw, grip to some extent, etc.

[ST911]

So serious question, doing classes once a month, how much new "didn't know that before" material do you actually get from each class?
I don't think I've ever trained with someone where I didn't get something new, even if it was only unique perspective on something I had been shown before but I have so much "info" to work with now that I need time spent developing it or maintaining it.

Valid. The more trainers and courses I attend on a topic the less new or novel stuff there is. What I look for are the gems and nuggets in an instructor's method, specific drills, explanations and verbalizations, how they organize information, class flow and timing, student-specific instruction and interaction, stuff like that. I capture as much as I can via a pocket notebook on breaks, and sometimes more writing or diagrams after class. The value of some things isn't immediately apparent, but I regularly refer back to the stacks of notebooks I've collected over the years. I can't think of any classes that I wish I'd gone completely without, but some were incredibly painful to get through with low net gain.

[taliv]

I appreciate all the replies. The convo has drifted a bit to an equally interesting aspect so I’ll chime back in.

I used to be a training junky but got a lot more value from matches which I viewed as learning opportunities if not training opportunities. I eventually stopped going to training classes because I wanted to focus on different things, particularly shooting with NV and much more movement than you typically get in a square range class.

I am very comfortable practicing on my own and with others what I already know. But one thing I appreciated from some classes I took was that some instructors updated their techniques regularly. That’s what I want out of training classes. Best practices. Things like insight into why something I might do on a 3gun stage might be a bad habit. I remember talking to Pat Rogers about why he was teaching such a slow technique for turning and firing and he said “what if the floor is covered in blood” and then it was immediately obvious his technique kept the center of gravity over your feet where I would have been hauling ass and then assing myself. Maybe it’s a dumb example but certainly something I’d never even considered as a civilian.

I want to take a few classes from instructors teaching the latest greatest. I don’t want to pay someone to tell me how things were done in the 80s or even 10 years ago. And I don’t want to feel like someone is reading the internet to me.

And then I want a group to practice with.

I’ve taken classes where the instructors was painfully bad. Years ago that didn’t bother me. I had the vacation time and a good attitude “a bad day training is still better than being at work” and I can learn a lot from a dummy too. But these days I’ve lost my tolerance and patience for that. I feel focused and motivated but maybe it’s a bad attitude lol. I was planning to be very selective and then surprised that I have almost no classes in my area. Ok if I have to travel but was hoping to avoid it. And at the moment I’m just hesitant to pay someone ive never heard of who has basic mil service resume $700

[Hank6046]

I want to take a few classes from instructors teaching the latest greatest. I don’t want to pay someone to tell me how things were done in the 80s or even 10 years ago. And I don’t want to feel like someone is reading the internet to me.

And then I want a group to practice with.

I totally understand your statement and your goal. Just my 2 cents here, the greatest classes I have ever taken just pushed the basics over and over again, even the advanced courses just pushed those basics in differing and more difficult situations. There are a few Pew Pew guys out there that wear all the Crye, and are sponsored by X $3k rifle company, and look like they came off a Bond movie set, but what their teaching isn't necessarily what is going to help you fire rounds accurately and quickly in a gun fight.

I would do 2 things in your situation, first look into training that is coming nearby, and reach out via email or do some research into the training and instructors, and second, look into a range nearby that either hosts, or has a few guys that run AR's and are similar minded in their training, the more involved you are the more people tend to come out of the woodwork.

[Esq.]

I am a training junkie. I usually do between 10-12 classes a year. Last fall I went nine straight weekends, and four of those nine were instructor-level certification classes.

And what do I see? Usually the same people. Not kidding, I was in a shotgun instructor class in October, and I knew all but two of the 14 students, and had been in multiple classes with most. Everybody is shaking hands and playing the "where do I know you from" game.

Ernest Langdon was here two weeks ago, and I went by the class to bring some ice water and Gatorade, since it was over 100 that day. Plus, I just wanted to BS with him, he's a terrific guy. Sure enough, I ended up shaking hands with four guys I knew as we swept up the range.

So you have a lot of people that will take one or two classes, and that fulfills their needs. Then you have crazy people like most of the mods/staff here who are either take or putting on classes multiple times. A month.

There are a LOT of private Facebook groups now for trainers and their alumni. I am part of four of them.

The estimates I have seen are that there is a VERY SMALL number of people who make up the real clientele of professional trainers. That number is somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 people- out of a country of 330 MILLION. So yea, there are lots of trainers and they are all SCRAMBLING for their cut of that small pie- that's why all the Facebook, Instagram, Youtube ---"LOOK AT ME" stuff........It's very competitive.