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Thread: UGH, another help with primers question

  1. #21
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    Again I would like to thank everyone for not only helping me out but also enriching my AR education with the sharing of their knowledge.
    Seems the good loard took pity on me as yesterday a LGS I've been dealing with for year$ that I let know I needed small rifle primers for my AR reloads called me up. They just got in a shipment of CCI mil-spec sm rifle primers and asked if I still wanted to buy any.
    I was there as fast a legally possible he asked me I I could please buy some 9mm coated bullets as he had quite glut of them. I gladly complied with his request.
    So now I'm in good shape for reloading for my AR for he foreseeable future.
    Will add sure am glad I saved 95% of my 223 brass and had been gradually stock piling 224 bullets from RMR and Everglades Ammo.
    Once again thanks for educating me with out making me feel stupid.

  2. #22
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    Hmmm this is interesting to me. I've been playing with a wildcat called the 5.68TLR, its a necked down 6.8 SPC case. My first loads were showing pressure signs with mushroomed primers, and I was using the CCI 400.This first load was giving me an average of 2940 FPS with a 75 grn ELD-M, which is slow for this cartridge. So if I read this right, the Federal #205 has a thicker primer cup?

  3. #23
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    I had a Yugo SKS go full auto on me at the range it was wolf factory ammo and had nothing to do with the primers. The problem was a dirty bolt that had never been completely torn down and totally cleaned.

    The AR15 bolt is far easier to compleatly strip down and make sure the floating firing pin moves freely. "BUT" how often do you clean your rifle and make sure the firing pin moves freely? All it would take is a small piece of brass or carbon buildup to cause a slam fire.

    Have you ever loaded a round and then remove it and check to see how much of a dent there is in the primer. You have hundreds of factories making AR15 rifles and thousands of people making their own rifles. And with variations in bolt parts a slam fire is not beyond the realm of possibilities. I use Remington 7 1/2 primers with a .025 cup thickness because that is what Lake City used during the M16 rifle's development until Remington lost the contract in 1984. So why use a CCI 400 primer when it has a thinner cup and the same as a magnum pistol primer designed for lower pressures.

    Below a CCI 400 primer with a .020 cup thickness, the primer edges are still rounded and not showing excessive pressure.

    Last edited by bigedp51; 07-10-20 at 14:42.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigedp51 View Post

    The AR15 bolt is far easier to compleatly strip down and make sure the floating firing pin moves freely. "BUT" how often do you clean your rifle and make sure the firing pin moves freely? All it would take is a small piece of brass or carbon buildup to cause a slam fire.
    Complete nonsense.

    The AR-15 has a rotating bolt that is designed to NOT allow the firing pin to even reach the primer until it has rotated fully and locked into battery.

    If you had so much carbon or a piece of brass gumming up the works somehow - That firing pin is going to be less likely to strike the primer with enough force to set it off when the hammer does strike it. It will NOT be more likely to 'slam fire' as you suggest by having crud in the way.

  5. #25
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    DG23 you need to read more and post less! The firing pin was lightened early in the M16 development to help prevent slamfires. And when ATK took over production at Lake City they started using the CCI #41 primer with a shorter anvil to reduce the primer sensitivity and minimize slam-fires.

    Slam Fire: The M16 Story
    https://www.fulton-armory.com/faqs/AR-FAQs/SlamFire3.htm

    May I commend to your attention pgs 123-133 of Ezell's "The Black Rifle," where the "premature" or "inadvertent" firing problem with the M16 is discussed at some length. The solution taken was one of the "Pre-Production Modifications" on pages 135-136, to wit:



    Firing pin redesign (fig. 138)

    "Finally incorporated as part of the TCC's "field fix" for the inadvertent fire problem, in conjunction with the adoption of less sensitive primers. After attempts by Colt's and Springfield to spring-load or otherwise partly restrain the firing pin, it was finally agreed to use a Colt idea which simply lightened the firing pin's total mass, thereby decreasing the force of its "bounce" off the primer." (emphasis added).

    On page 148 Stoner is quoted as saying: "Either desensitize the primer, make it out of a thicker material, or lighten up the firing pin...I recommend...lightening up the firing pin because...if you desensitized the primer too much it could cause failures to fire in the field."

    Yes, the locking lugs should be engaged for the firing pin to reach the primer, much as in the Garand-type action (M1, M14). However, a "Slam Fire" is simply the condition when a round is discharged without the normal firing mechanism being employed. Slam Fires may be caused by a broken/protruding firing pin, foreign matter on the bolt face, firing pin intertia, or other means. A Slam Fire may occur *in* or *out of* battery. In the first case, we have a truly Accidental (in contrast to a Negligent) Discharge with little or no potential harm to the shooter. In the latter, the breech is unlocked and *very* bad things can happen.

    To be truly pedantic, there are those firearms that depend on "slam fire" for functioning, typically subguns such as the M1A1 Thompson. The firing pin is a bump on the bolt face.

    In conclusion, where M1s, M14s and M16s are concerned, lighter firing pins are better, and use Mil-Spec primers. Hey, we spent a lot of tax dollars finding this stuff out!

    Last edited by bigedp51; 07-10-20 at 20:28.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigedp51 View Post
    DG23 you need to read more and post less!

    You have no clue how that bolt works do you?

    If crud gets in the way somehow what happens to the speed of that firing pin due to the bolt closing normally? Does it float faster?

    When the round is chambered and the firing pin actually CAN reach the primer - Will the hammer impart more or less energy to that firing pin if it is all gunked up with crud impeding its free and otherwise smooth travel?

    I suggest you actually shoot more and read less.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DG23 View Post
    You have no clue how that bolt works do you?

    If crud gets in the way somehow what happens to the speed of that firing pin due to the bolt closing normally? Does it float faster?

    When the round is chambered and the firing pin actually CAN reach the primer - Will the hammer impart more or less energy to that firing pin if it is all gunked up with crud impeding its free and otherwise smooth travel?

    I suggest you actually shoot more and read less.
    A slam fire has nothing to do with pulling the trigger and the hammer falling.

    "Slam Fires may be caused by a broken/protruding firing pin, foreign matter on the bolt face, firing pin intertia, or other means. A Slam Fire may occur *in* or *out of* battery."

  8. #28
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    Given that there are CCI #41 primers out there, and readily available these days, I don't understand why anybody would use anything else when loading for a semi-auto...

    Why risk a slam fire? (Yes, they do happen.)

    It's enough for me to see the dimple on the back of the primer of an unfired round after I eject it...

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bimmer View Post
    Given that there are CCI #41 primers out there, and readily available these days, I don't understand why anybody would use anything else when loading for a semi-auto...

    Why risk a slam fire? (Yes, they do happen.)

    It's enough for me to see the dimple on the back of the primer of an unfired round after I eject it...
    If as you say CCI #41 are readily available please PM me where I can buy 3k-5k on line as I have spent HOURS looking for CCI #41, CCI 450 small rifle primers or Federal Magnum small rifle or AR primers and can find only one source for CCI #41's and they are allowing only one brick of 1k per order at $58/1k with hazmat and S/H they cost over $70/1k.
    None are available OTC within 100+ miles of my home. Yes I can find CCI 400's both online and OTC near my home and have quite a few of them and are the purpose of this thread.
    I did get lucky as I stated in a reply of mine in this thread and was able to find a decent amount of AR specific primers OTC, but they are all gone now. I found one and only one source online and they were limiting purchases to 5k per day so I boufght 5k. Went back to the sight at 12:01am the next day to try to order more and they were and still are sold out.
    Last edited by DMTJAGER; 07-11-20 at 22:27.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMTJAGER View Post
    If as you say CCI #41 are readily available please PM me where I can buy 3k-5k on line as I have spent HOURS looking for CCI #41...

    None are available OTC within 100+ miles of my home.
    Well, that does suck for you... I bought 20,000 after the last panic (2008-09).

    And I don't know where you're located (you should fill in your profile), but I'm pretty sure that my local Sportman's Whorehouse had them in stock the last time I was in there...

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