Marking cam pins?

[Joe Mamma]

Thanks guys for allowing us to talk about our products sometimes

Chad and Roger, I am fairly sure the vast majority of people on this forum (including myself) welcome and value your input.

Keeping this post on topic, I'm not sure how I feel about the cam pin orientation. Over the years, sometimes I reinstall them in the same orientation. But sometimes I flip them around to get more even wear out of them, trying to make them last longer (like rotating tires on a car). However, most of the time I don't pay attention to the orientation.

I do think cam pin wear is an often overlooked cause of bolt breakage. So I probably replace mine more often than most just as preventative maintenance.

I noticed that some bolt carriers chew up cam pins simply because of the rough or inexact machining of the cam pin path in the bolt carrier.

Joe Mamma

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

It is.

For you, probably.

[Hulkstr8]

Roger in my mind is beyond the shade that is thrown his way. He is one of the most generous dudes you will find in this industry. I am kinda sick of ppl trying to throw him under the bus for price -like he is somehow counting his money by the bundle.

Chad is a super knowledgeable guy. You don't even have to like him to take advantage of his experience. Go figure.

[m4luvr]

ppl trying to throw him under the bus

we call those ppl trolls

[Duffy]

It's all good gents, not everyone sees things our way, we don't expect them to.

SCP shouldn't be controversial, it's something you can do if you have a mind to get every bit of performance you can simply by installing it back in the same orientation. Or if you don't believe in it, don't do it, and replace the cam pin when it's got more slop than you're comfortable with. Loose fitting parts beat on each other more than tighter fitting parts when they're in motion, this is true of other things in life too.

Similarly, some question the usefulness of Ned's OCKS. While it is true that properly torqued and staked carrier gas keys rarely, if ever come loose, so why OCKS? It goes back to the idea of getting every ounce of performance, in this case reliability, out of something as simple as a pair of well designed gas key screws. Carriers with OCKS are more tolerant of variables that may be introduced during toruqing and staking, OCKS doesn't replace either. A properly torqued and staked gas key using OCKS is very difficult, and much harder to loosen than with typical gas key screws. Chad's video has demonstrated this time and again in his videos. For the minimal cost, maybe a better question isn't why, but why not.

For those that agree with us, there's the option

FCD is about as far from Gucci/lifestyle/hobby grade as it gets. The price of our products may put us in the boutique space, it's not by design and I don't like it. US sourced material, and American labor aren't cheap, but we're an American company, and will only use American material and workforce. So our products are expensive, you can take comfort in that your dollars go down the chain and do their part to keep our dealers and shops with their American employees in business.

[Disciple]

US sourced material, and American labor aren't cheap, but we're an American company, and will only use American material and workforce.

[Ned Christiansen]

I never gave this a bit of thought but after the discussion I'm ready to say "it matters". Does it matter a ton? Well, does any mod, any improvement matter that much? There is nothing I can think of, no modification, no accessory, no lube, nothing-- that makes an AR "twice as good". And yet, if it helps keep the bolt in one piece to x-number of rounds more, or even until the day after the big gunfight as opposed to the day of, I would say then that it's worth it. I mean the system is pretty darn good as-is, assuming some quality and care in manufacture, so at this point we are looking for things that make it a "little" better. A 30%, or a 10%, or even a 2% increase in bolt life could be of value in terms of money and convenience but it could also mean much more.

I will say that I can't fault the logic that Chad and Roger are putting forth. Bolt breakage at the cam pin hole in my opinion comes from the cam pin impacting the front terminus of the carrier's cam pin slot-- pushing the rear part of the bolt to the rear, but pulling the front part. Add in some other factors, mostly poorly made bolts where the knife-edge intersection of the cam pin hole and body diameter are notched. Notches are cracks waiting to be born. Sprinkle in other manufacturing shortcuts like material or heat treat and maybe a little hard extraction (thousands of times)... I'll just say that for me I think going forward it's worth marking them or getting new ones that are marked.

[Vegas]

Wrong answer.

This thread is about marking cam pins, not iron sights. Here's a link for you to use to go start your own thread discussing the merits of said irons: https://www.m4carbine.net/newthread....=newthread&f=3

Back on topic, this thread is interesting to me because it's such a simple concept but something I hadn't considered before. It never hurts to have a solid reference point for wear on a part.

[ST911]

I never gave this a bit of thought but after the discussion I'm ready to say "it matters". Does it matter a ton? Well, does any mod, any improvement matter that much? There is nothing I can think of, no modification, no accessory, no lube, nothing-- that makes an AR "twice as good". And yet, if it helps keep the bolt in one piece to x-number of rounds more, or even until the day after the big gunfight as opposed to the day of, I would say then that it's worth it. I mean the system is pretty darn good as-is, assuming some quality and care in manufacture, so at this point we are looking for things that make it a "little" better. A 30%, or a 10%, or even a 2% increase in bolt life could be of value in terms of money and convenience but it could also mean much more.

I will say that I can't fault the logic that Chad and Roger are putting forth. Bolt breakage at the cam pin hole in my opinion comes from the cam pin impacting the front terminus of the carrier's cam pin slot-- pushing the rear part of the bolt to the rear, but pulling the front part. Add in some other factors, mostly poorly made bolts where the knife-edge intersection of the cam pin hole and body diameter are notched. Notches are cracks waiting to be born. Sprinkle in other manufacturing shortcuts like material or heat treat and maybe a little hard extraction (thousands of times)... I'll just say that for me I think going forward it's worth marking them or getting new ones that are marked.

This.

[SOTAR]

I look up to Ned.

His post made me smile. I'm always learning from that man.