Trijicon sues Holosun (patent infringement)

[Adrenaline_6]

That is all irrelevant. The point is that the larger company has a smaller amount of overhead per capita in most cases. Whether that is sales, HR, payroll, security, marketing, R&D. For a manufacturing company, the larger the company, the lower amount of over head per capita they have, in general. I am sure there are exceptions.

Basic economic fact is that smaller companies manufacturing products with smaller gross sales amounts generally need a higher profit margin than larger companies that sell an order of magnitude or two orders of magnitude more product in order to make a decent profit, cover expenses, etc. One part of that is generally the overhead in the small company selling smaller amounts of products (which tend to be "niche" products) is per capita greater. fixed manufacturing costs are also usually greater (it costs some amount to set up the lines and you amortize that across the products manufactured and you sell more products, the fixed cost of setting up the line per product is lower).

So comparing a Samsung phone for $700 to an Aimpoint at $700, with the Aimpoint probably having a lower cost of materials, is not a fair comparison.

It isn't probably...lets be truthful here, it isn't even close. They are charging more than some variable optics. Which is a crapload more expensive to make and complex than a T-2.

[chadbag]

It isn't probably...lets be truthful here, it isn't even close. They are charging more than some variable optics. Which is a crapload more expensive to make and complex than a T-2.

Whatever.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.


I guess Porsche is bad because their car is much more expensive than some Japanese rice burner car.

[Adrenaline_6]

Whatever.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.


I guess Porsche is bad because their car is much more expensive than some Japanese rice burner car.

Talk about hard headed. You guys have zero middle ground. When did I say that Trijicon or Aimpoint is bad? When? Never. Not once. I just said I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze lately. That's it. If you think it is, great, you do you, but if you think I should think like you do then you are sorely mistaken. You are no different than that Karen in the grocery store screaming to get you to do what she thinks you should. Get over yourself. It's not going to happen.

Here is the difference that you guys refuse to see. The people on the side of the fence that are willing to buy and try a HS or PA, etc aren't bashing the people that don't want to do it. It is totally fine. The other side of the fence is slinging insults and bashing the other side for doing it when it really is none of your business. Yet these would be the same guys bashing the BLM and Antifa people for pretty much doing the exact same thing (minus the riots) at protests and colleges. Hypocrites.

[jpmuscle]

Talk about hard headed. You guys have zero middle ground. When did I say that Trijicon or Aimpoint is bad? When? Never. Not once. I just said I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze lately. That's it. If you think it is, great, you do you, but if you think I should think like you do then you are sorely mistaken. You are no different than that Karen in the grocery store screaming to get you to do what she thinks you should. Get over yourself. It's not going to happen.

Bro, Holosun 508T v2s are the approved pistol RDS choice of Antifa if you didn’t know.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chadbag]

Talk about hard headed. You guys have zero middle ground. When did I say that Trijicon or Aimpoint is bad? When? Never. Not once. I just said I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze lately. That's it. If you think it is, great, you do you, but if you think I should think like you do then you are sorely mistaken. You are no different than that Karen in the grocery store screaming to get you to do what she thinks you should. Get over yourself. It's not going to happen.

LOL. You are someone who denies basic economics. Who thinks someone who has a higher markup than someone else is ripping others off, without understanding their basic business. Who makes illogical comparisons to try and support that belief.

And when I said "Porsche is bad" I meant, obviously, in the context of this conversation. Because Porsche obviously has a much higher markup than a more mundane rice burner sports car, they must be ripping you off.

Anyway, I am done. Like I said, you can lead a horse to water, but cannot make him drink. I've provided basic economic info. It is up to you to use it.

[Adrenaline_6]

LOL. You are someone who denies basic economics. Who thinks someone who has a higher markup than someone else is ripping others off, without understanding their basic business. Who makes illogical comparisons to try and support that belief.

And when I said "Porsche is bad" I meant, obviously, in the context of this conversation. Because Porsche obviously has a much higher markup than a more mundane rice burner sports car, they must be ripping you off.

Anyway, I am done. Like I said, you can lead a horse to water, but cannot make him drink. I've provided basic economic info. It is up to you to use it.

You are the one in denial. I deal with surveillance camera systems in the commercial environment. I Know the MSRP and dealer costs of them. Sure, the Chinese ones are cheaper, we don't deal with them for security concerns on top of the fact that they are banned. We never sold them anyway. Not our target customer.

A 1080P camera that has 8 available streams, a custom designed chip from the manufacturer itself, a 1/2.8" Progressive RGB CMOS image sensor, is IP66-, NEMA 4X-, and IK10- rated, has 1024MB RAM, 512MB Flash, has very low light capability along with True Wide dynamic range, has a 3.4-8.9mm varifocal lens that can be adjusted remotely through the cameras web interface along with auto focus, has an automatic IR cut filter along with IR leds that illuminate up to 140' which also auto adjust to the camera scene to not over illuminate and bloom images, it also has an audio input and output along with the option to load developed applications that can run on the camera itself, it can be powered over PoE using a max of 11.3 watts (6.4w typical).

This costs $200 less than a damn T-2.....oh....and take one guess where it's made. How's that for economics?

[MountainRaven]

Someone said that m4c.net is about, "what is the best."

That is patently false.

m4c.net is about what is good enough. Colt LE6920s and Glock 19s aren't the best, but they are good enough.

The Trijicon RMR isn't the best - but there is no best pistol red dot (yet). But it is good enough. Holosun makes pistol red dots that aren't the best, either. But they are good enough.

The difference is that the Trijicon RMR is not made by communist-enriching, America-opposing slave labor.

Even if Holosun eventually imports the best pistol red dot, the Trijicon RMR will still be good enough, and it still won't be made by literal communists.

[chadbag]

You are the one in denial. I deal with surveillance camera systems in the commercial environment. I Know the MSRP and dealer costs of them. Sure, the Chinese ones are cheaper, we don't deal with them for security concerns on top of the fact that they are banned. We never sold them anyway. Not our target customer.

A 1080P camera that has 8 available streams, a custom designed chip from the manufacturer itself, a 1/2.8" Progressive RGB CMOS image sensor, is IP66-, NEMA 4X-, and IK10- rated, has 1024MB RAM, 512MB Flash, has very low light capability along with True Wide dynamic range, has a 3.4-8.9mm varifocal lens that can be adjusted remotely through the cameras web interface along with auto focus, has an automatic IR cut filter along with IR leds that illuminate up to 140' which also auto adjust to the camera scene to not over illuminate and bloom images, it also has an audio input and output along with the option to load developed applications that can run on the camera itself, it can be powered over PoE using a max of 11.3 watts (6.4w typical).

This costs $200 less than a damn T-2.....oh....and take one guess where it's made. How's that for economics?

Can you please just lay out your facts, your point, and how the facts support your point? I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say, unless it is that the (presumably US made) camera system costs less than the Swedish made T2? And that therefore the T2 is overpriced?

How many units does each sell? How much is each product made from "off the shelf" components vs custom made components. And where are those components made? Even if the camera is not assembled in China, where are the lenses, and other "non-tamperable" pieces from? But most importantly, what is the size of the market. I'd bet they sell a lot more units a year than Aimpoint sells of T2s (just a guess).

And just to be clear, if a company only sells direct to consumers, we are talking about the cost to the manufacturer (including all the fixed cost amortization like R&D, S&M, etc.) to the MSRP or normal sales price. If they sell only through dealers, then the same price markup to the dealer cost. The dealer also needs to make money so the price difference between the dealer cost and the price he sells it for is not really important to this exact discussion since it is an added layer on top of the normal price structure and this discussion has revolved around the profits of the manufacturers.

Economically speaking, if something is overpriced than it won't sell. If it is selling within the goals of the manufacturer/dealer network, it is not overpriced.

[Adrenaline_6]

Can you please just lay out your facts, your point, and how the facts support your point? I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say, unless it is that the (presumably US made) camera system costs less than the Swedish made T2? And that therefore the T2 is overpriced?

How many units does each sell? How much is each product made from "off the shelf" components vs custom made components. And where are those components made? Even if the camera is not assembled in China, where are the lenses, and other "non-tamperable" pieces from? But most importantly, what is the size of the market. I'd bet they sell a lot more units a year than Aimpoint sells of T2s (just a guess).

And just to be clear, if a company only sells direct to consumers, we are talking about the cost to the manufacturer (including all the fixed cost amortization like R&D, S&M, etc.) to the MSRP or normal sales price. If they sell only through dealers, then the same price markup to the dealer cost. The dealer also needs to make money so the price difference between the dealer cost and the price he sells it for is not really important to this exact discussion since it is an added layer on top of the normal price structure and this discussion has revolved around the profits of the manufacturers.

Economically speaking, if something is overpriced than it won't sell. If it is selling within the goals of the manufacturer/dealer network, it is not overpriced.

It is also made in Sweden. I will guarantee that the components that are made and designed in house is far more then the T-2. They actually design and make their own processor their engineering and R&D is well known for quality. None of their stuff is made in China (not sure about the mounts - but that isn't part of the cost - it is separate and not necessarily required). There is the added cost of constant firmware update releases for security and debugging. They sell to dealers and dealers get discounted prices according to tier. The price I gave that was $200 cheaper than a T-2 was what anyone here can buy it for online. It is not assembled in China, the last time I checked a box it was in Poland. Yes, they sell a lot more units than T-2's but that doesn't account for the tech going into it by comparison. Aimpoint isn't a huge company but they aren't small either. 77 million in revenue isn't small potatoes.

[Five_Point_Five_Six]

Someone said that m4c.net is about, "what is the best."

That is patently false.

m4c.net is about what is good enough. Colt LE6920s and Glock 19s aren't the best, but they are good enough.

The Trijicon RMR isn't the best - but there is no best pistol red dot (yet). But it is good enough. Holosun makes pistol red dots that aren't the best, either. But they are good enough.

The difference is that the Trijicon RMR is not made by communist-enriching, America-opposing slave labor.

Even if Holosun eventually imports the best pistol red dot, the Trijicon RMR will still be good enough, and it still won't be made by literal communists.

Preach.