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Thread: Circle_10 tries to build a Recce/DMR-ish rifle

  1. #11
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    You got some nice rifles there Circle 10.
    Good night Chesty...wherever you are.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3 AE View Post
    Circle_10, Frankly, I would drop the 1x requirement for an optic on this rifle. You have all the other AR's you can put 1x-4x optics and/or RDS on. Since you are wanting to push this rifle towards the DMR end of the spectrum, why not extend out to something like the Vortex Viper PST Gen II 2-10 x 32. It comes in both MRAD and MOA reticles and you more than double the power on the top end. And for $850, you aren't breaking the bank and can put the savings toward a solid mount and match grade ammo. Just a thought.

    https://www.sportoptics.com/vortex-v...le-scopes.aspx

    Yeah, that argument does have some legit merit. With the luxury of choice, the odds of me willingly utilizing this in a close range context are not high, even with 1x capability. I think I tend to think in terms of “what if this is the only AR I have with me?” But than again in a pinch I’m able to use my fixed power Primary Arms 2.5x prism at close range, I’m sure I could do likewise with a 2-10 dialed down to 2x. Or, with an illuminated reticle I might even be able to close the objective lense cover and try the old “occluded eye gunsight” trick.
    The way things are going, it’s probably going to be awhile before I can get a new optic so I might have to deal with the 1-4x for a bit anyway. Although selling the Steiner would cover a decent chunk of the cost for 2-10 or something along those lines.
    I had been intending to procure and try a selection of different match loads as well but you can probably guess how that’s been going.

    I haven’t really been able to shoot it much at all. I’ve only got about 120rds through it. I did take the Harris off of my .308 the other day to try using a bipod with this rifle. Groups were quite mediocre as I was just shooting plain old Federal 55gr ball, except for my very first group which was excellent for some reason, and likely just a fluke considering how the others went.


    Quote Originally Posted by artoter View Post
    You got some nice rifles there Circle 10.
    Thanks! I try.
    Last edited by Circle_10; 09-04-20 at 18:52.

  3. #13
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    In what scenario would the MBUS rear sight be functional since you have a fixed scope mount? I am asking because I am building a similar Recce type as well, so would like to hear ideas. I ended up replacing 1-4 with a 3-9, and most likely will go to 45 offset red dot.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by AwaySooner View Post
    In what scenario would the MBUS rear sight be functional since you have a fixed scope mount? I am asking because I am building a similar Recce type as well, so would like to hear ideas. I ended up replacing 1-4 with a 3-9, and most likely will go to 45 offset red dot.
    There’s probably no scenario under which they would be instantly available with my arrangement to be honest. Although I’ve currently got the torx wrench stuffed into the pistol grip and retained with a grip plug. On my previous dalliance with this LPVO and mount on the other gun I used an Israeli handguard band to retain the torx wrench on the handguard.
    Not an instant way of accessing the backups by any means but it would at least allow me to remove the optic in the “field” if needed.
    Last edited by Circle_10; 09-05-20 at 14:25.

  5. #15
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    An update:

    So today was the first time since my previous post that I’ve shot this thing. The ammo situation is obviously complicating things and I’ve mostly been shooting AKs like a third-world poor (and actually rather enjoying it, but that’s a discussion for another day)
    I know I agreed in an earlier post that a different scope would really benefit me but I haven’t gotten around to getting one yet. So for now it looks like I’m going to be sticking with the Steiner and it’s target-obscuring P3TR reticle that I hate.
    I did swap the grip out for the very vertical B5 Grip 23, and my impressions are pretty positive. I could see this grip finding its way on to some of my other guns. It’s my first time using a reduced angle pistol grip.



    Here and there I have been grabbing boxes of higher grade ammo when it’s become available. So today I headed to the range with Federal XM193, Federal Gold Medal 77gr, Federal Gold Medal 69gr, and Federal TRU 69gr. When i arrived at the range the wind was frustratingly high but I went ahead and shot anyway.
    I did some shooting with XM193 first, just to check out the POI because XM193 is what I stock the most of so I like to use that as my baseline for all my ARs than adjust accordingly for other loads if need be (and note the adjustments). Finally I shot a couple groups of XM193 on the target pictured below and you can see the results.
    Interestingly, the groups that I got with the XM193 are not dramatically tighter than what I can frequently pull off with iron sights on some of my other ARs. This is something I’ve noticed when using my prism scope on another rifle too, optics speed up my target acquisition but rarely do they make a major difference in group size with XM193.

    So basically I fired a group from each load at the center to compare POI (aside from the XM193 hitting oddly lower than everything else I was pleased with how close everything was), then fired one group of each load at the four smaller diamonds, holding as close as I could manage to the bottom point of each one. I really don’t think this is what the Steiner’s 4x magnification and P3TR reticle is designed for but I basically said “F**k it! We’ll do it live!”



    The groups shot with the heavier loads are better overall than the XM193 but the reticle on this scope really makes it tough to get a precise point of aim on a small target, at least for me. The Gold Medal 69gr turned out the best overall groups.
    One odd thing is that I fired five rounds of the TRU at that lower left diamond but only found four holes. So although upon close examination it really doesn’t look like I stacked any shots, either I put two through the exact same hole or somehow threw one right off the paper completely...
    Plus I kinda rushed the top two groups (the second 77gr group and the second XM193 group) because some boomer showed up toward the end with what I’m assuming had to be his mail order Asian child bride and started berating her when she wasn’t sighting in a deer rifle to his satisfaction, which was distracting and.....actually slightly uncomfortable.
    I still suspect that with a different optic (and probably a better shooter) this gun can do better. I also intend to take it out on a calmer day with less wind too, although I don’t really get the impression the wind was too much of a factor here.
    Last edited by Circle_10; 10-27-20 at 17:52.

  6. #16
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    I have built a few RECCE type ARs over the past several years. Here is one I built in 2009 and still have.



    The upper receiver and barrel (HBAR 16" w/ carbine gas system) are from Del-Ton. It is a great shooting and very accurate carbine.

    Here are a coupe other I still have that were built in the past few years. The top one has a Compass Lake Engineering Recon 16.1" Douglas Stainless (polished) 1:8 twist
    barrel w/ mid-length gas system and .223 Wylde chamber. It is one of the sweetest shooting ARs I own.



    This one has a Ballistic Advantage 16" .223 Wylde 1/8 twist SPR stainless steel midlength AR-15 Premium Series barrel. I really like the MAGPUL M-LOK bipod.



    This is the closest one I have to a DMR type rifle. It is my Travis Haley-Blackwater Bushmaster clone.



    This was the second RECCE type AR I built back in Nov. 2009. Most all of it is LaRue Tactical with their newest UDE MAGPUL furniture. I wish I still had it. I traded it for three Colt 1911s.

    "A Bad Day At The Range Is Better Than A Great Day Working"

    USMC Force Recon 1978-1984
    US Air Force Res. 1995-2004 (Air Transportation)
    M16/AR15 shooter since 1978, gun collector and AR builder since 2004

  7. #17
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    Another update:

    So I’ve kinda abandoned the whole “Recce” thing for this build. The advice above about ditching my requirement for an optic with a 1x capability has gotten me thinking about taking this gun in a different direction. So as an experiment, yesterday I removed the Steiner P4Xi 1-4x and mounted the Nikon 4-16x50 scope I had on my Savage 10FP I barely ever shoot.



    Also figuring into this decision the shift the focus of this gun is my other midlength AR with a Primary Arms 3x prism on it.
    I’ve discussed at length my difficulties being precise with the Steiner’s low top-end magnification and coarse reticle.
    Well the PA 3x has almost as much magnification as the Steiner, coupled with a reticle I find much easier to use. It’s also a more maneuverable gun.

    With the 3x it’s capable of putting 10 rounds of M193 into about 2.5 inches at 100yds. With better ammo I have regularly gotten sub 2MOA groups down to almost 1MOA groups out of this gun even with just the older 2.5x prism that I used to have on it. So it’s always been a pretty decently accurate gun.

    So having my new build topped with the Steiner 1-4x starts seeming kind of redundant.

    So yesterday I took the “new” build, now topped with the Nikon, to the range (it’s not that “new” really now, I started this thread in like August I think, but I’ve barely been able to shoot this thing)
    Mostly the same loads as before, with the addition of Federal TRU 55gr and Barnes 69gr.
    Since I was testing multiple loads I didn’t really bother dialing the scope in super precisely for any specific one. However most of them appeared to shoot to pretty much the same point of impact anyway.
    This time the Barnes took the top slot with a group measuring .98”.
    The 55gr TRU was unimpressive, but I think the TRU stuff is marketed as like a duty load rather then a match load anyway (and apparently the terminal ballistics of 55gr TRU sucks anyway, so it probably isn’t something I’ll buy more of)


    I still think the gun can probably do better, as a lot of these groups aren’t much different than what I did with the Steiner 1-4....it was just a lot easier doing them. I also I feel I’m kind of a shaky “precision” shooter even at this paltry 100yd distance, honestly I don’t do a lot of it (recall my barely used Savage 10FP) so that probably figures in here too. But I kinda felt compelled to push this gun into a niche that made more sense.
    A downside is that it’s becoming the kind of AR I hate - a heavy, clunky fuddish monstrosity fitted with a huge overpowered scope. So I still think I will eventually get another scope for it, something in the 2-10x44 range probably, which would be a bit more “proportional” to the gun.
    Last edited by Circle_10; 11-22-20 at 15:18.

  8. #18
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    So I’m hoping this is the last time I end up seriously changing this gun. The biggest change since last time is that I went back to an adjustable stock.





    Next, I’m back using the Steiner P4Xi 1-4x after a brief dalliance with the Nikon 4-16x. I also am using an aero Extended Ultralight instead of the SPR type I was using before. Having the scope positioned more rearward + the adjustable stock actually makes a big difference in comfort. I’m now suspecting that the initial problems I had with this stock were related to the more forward scope position forcing my face to take a subpar position.
    Another minor change is that I swapped the A2 flash hider out for the old three-prong type. No real reason for this other than “cuz..reasons”. But I think it kinda looks good on the gun.


    Maybe it is the more rear-oriented scope position but the balance seems better this time around than it did when I initially put this thing together last summer.

    All that is well and good of course, but how’s it shoot now? Well I decided to find out. The ammo crisis means I’ve been conserving 5.56, which is why I’ve had this gun for literally months now but only have like 300 rounds through it. but yesterday I decided to dip into my dwindling stock of IMI 77gr Razor Core.
    Well I’ve discussed my feelings on the P4Xi previously, but after zeroing at 50yds I took it out too 100 just to see how it would do.
    Got a group measuring 1.42”, which I was happy with due to the issues I have with the Steiner’s reticle obscuring small targets at distance. And it’s also in the same size range as a lot of the other groups I’ve been getting with the other match loads I’ve tried. While I was being very stingy with my ammo expenditure, I did decide to shoot another 100yd group and turned out a 5-shot group measuring .80”, which I was pretty thrilled with. The larger target actually allowed me to take more precise aim. I would have like to shoot more but I have to ration my ammo now, and try to do more with less.



    So as far as I’m concerned I’m considering the gun zeroed with IMI 77gr, which is the only load I currently have several mag’s worth of aside from thousands of rounds of M193 and M855. I’ll probably check POI with M193 and note the difference when I decide to burn a bit more ammo.

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