Circle_10 tries to build a Recce/DMR-ish rifle

[Circle_10]

I've got a bunch of ARs, but I've always been a fixed FSB guy. So all of my ARs had fixed FSBs and plastic handguards of some type or another, a number of my ARs are Retro clones in fact. So i'd never really messed around with free float handguards.
At the same time I became aware that my AR assortment was lacking in something able to fulfill some kind of 'DMR'-ish niche. Seeking to rectify this I got a Steiner P4Xi a couple years back and stuck it on my 16" midlength


The gun shot relatively well considering it had a non-free floated barrel. But I grew to dislike this setup, the LPVO made it a pig. It was clunky to use, and just overall it really wasn't a good configuration. After about six months I took the Steiner off, swapped the flash hider back to an A2 and put the Primary Arms 2.5x prism it had worn previously back on it. A much better "fit" for this gun.
The Steiner went into storage.

However as time passed I found myself wanting to take another crack at the Recce/DMR style concept. So back in July I ordered a Sionics Patrol 3XL upper receiver with Magpul MBUS Pro sights but without a BCG and charging handle. The upper was taking a while to ship with all the stupidity going on so in the interim I renovated one of my lowers with a BCM carbine receiver extension and a LaRue MBT trigger. Eventually my upper shipped and I got it last week. I added a BCM Gunfighter charging handle and a Sons of Liberty BCG.


Alright, now we are in business. Took it to the range for the first time today. Weather was brutally hot at 87 to 90 degrees, as well as humid. Zeroing the backup sights at 50yds required a lot of adjustment to the left, but whatever, they are going to stay folded down anyway. After that I broke out the Wheeler FAT wrench and some Loctite and got the scope mounted.

Zeroing the scope was a disaster. My immediate impression was that something about the cheekweld I was getting with the BCM stock really wasn't putting my face in the right position to use the scope. I also found the whole arrangement uncomfortable for some reason. Groups were not good. Something just wasn't working here. After about 50 rounds of XM193 I packed up in disgust and left the range. I only live about six minutes away so it was a quick ride home. immediately upon arriving home I headed downstairs with the rifle and removed the carbine receiver extension, and added a rifle extension, along with a Brownells repro "Type D" stock. My initial impressions were that, yeah the cheekweld felt better for some reason. Looked kind of good too....in my opinion.


So the parts breakdown as it currently stands:

Lower - An unremarkable SAA lower receiver that had the ol' rattle can treatment at one point.
Rifle receiver extension
Brownells Type D repro stock
Hogue Beavertail grip
LaRue MBT trigger

Upper receiver - Sionics Patrol 3XL. 16" 1/8 twist chrome lined Medium Contour barrel with an A2 flash hider. I opted for the Medium Contour vs the lightweight profile because my intention was to use this gun in the aforementioned Recce/DMR style role. 15" Mlok rail.
Magpul MBUS Pro sights.
BCM Gunfighter charging handle, Mod 4 (Medium latch)
Sons of Liberty BCG
Rail covers of various types.

I debated putting a VFG on this gun but I find myself getting away from VFGs on guns that don't have lights mounted all the time. This gun has a rail section at 9 o'clock to allow a light to be mounted, but I don't think it will wear one full time.

One thing I am considering is some kind of bipod. As much as I don't want to put anything UTG on my guns their Mlok Flex bipod, in which the two legs mount directly to the handguard at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions - looked interesting enough in concept that I nearly bought it. But the idea of having that much weight on the front of gun was really off-putting and I decided against it....and also cuz UTG...
The next thing I looked at was the Heathen Assaulter bipod. Its an ultralight design, which I liked, instead of folding the bipod legs are removed and stowed either off the gun or along the handguard. Interesting idea, but the lack of adjustability for height was a turn off. And I started reading reviews that indicated that the design was somewhat frail and after a period of use the sockets started to fail to retain the legs properly. It sounded like a pain in the ass and I didn't feel like dropping $100 on it.

So when I start looking into bipods more seriously I'll probably just get a Magpul bipod with a QD attachment, so I don't have to leave the bipod hanging off the front end all the time.

Optic is the Steiner P4Xi 1-4x LPVO. I'll talk more about that shortly. Mount is an Aero Ultralight SPR mount, which is....fine.


So after my slight reconfiguration it was back to the range. Because my cheekweld was different with this stock I removed the scope and double checked my iron sight zero at 50 yards. Seemed fine. Re-mounted the scope with the FAT wrench. Initially I dialed the scope in at 50yds with Federal 55gr .223. I then started in on a 100yd target to tweak the zero as needed.

by this point the heat was getting to me though, even in the shade. And my face was starting to slide all around on the stock, which wasn't helping my groups. Also the fact it was cheap ball ammo wasn't helping either. POI seemed alright though, as far as windage and elevation were concerned.
I then tried some RUAG Ammotec 55gr 5.56. 100 yd results were "meh".

Next up was IMI 77 gr Razor Core, which I am running low on, but really wanted to try. My experience with IMI 77gr has been that it basically never shoots to the same POI as 55gr ball, which isn't surprising. Why would it?
What I've always run into with this stuff though is not just vertical shift, but usually a lot of lateral shift as well. Today was no exception. By this time so much sweat was pouring off my face that maintaining a solid cheekweld had become impossible so after some intial adjustments I basically gave up trying to dial it in with the IMI because who knows if the POI shift was actually due to the ammo or the fact I could barely keep my face positioned behind the scope properly.

The actual group sizes weren't really too bad, ranging from 1.32'.....but off center, to my dumbass 2.25" group, which was also off center. I have mild OCD (literally) and off-center groups drive me nuts. So you can probably imagine how many vile words I called myself after seeing these groups. For groups #3 and #4 I adjusted my POA slightly to offset the high 100yd POI from having a 50yd zero.

I suspect the gun is capable of better than that, and I'm pretty sure I am too. So I'll be going back on a milder day to try and get things sorted out, which seemed like a better idea than endlessly tweaking my windage trying to correct a POI issue that may have had nothing whatsoever to do with the equipment.

So now more about that Steiner scope. I f*****g hate the P3TR reticle in the P4Xi. I know some people really like it but I just hate it. I hated it from the first time I took it to the range way back when and I hate it now. Even on 4x it obscures way too much of my target and I do believe the fact the reticle covers up what I'm trying to hit contributed to the off center results above and some similar issues I had with it during my first go round with it on my other gun. If I work with it enough, after a while it becomes usable for me and that's about it. The reason why it ended up on this gun is because...well I already had it. I think I was hoping I could make it work, and honestly, when I get back into the swing of using it again, I very well might. But today's outing made me realize how little I missed looking through it.
Part of it is my own fault, because I don't think the P4Xi is really intended for what I'm trying to do with it. I like the idea of a DMR style gun with a 1x capability, because thats just how I am. I think I need something with a higher top end magnification, at least 1-6x, and a different reticle to really get this gun where I want it.

Sometime in the coming months there's a decent chance a used P4Xi is going to end up listed in the Equipment Exchange but for now I guess I'll put up with it.

[everready73]

Nice build! I like the look with the rifle buffer set up. Those groups are nothing to laugh at considering the conditions and a 4x scope. I am sure you can do better, but I would be happy with that

You could probably get a good price if selling the Steiner. Many people like them and market is in your favor. If you wanted to stay in the same price range s PST 2, xtr2, meopta optima 6 would be decent options to look at.

I think 1-6/8/10 makes sense for your application more than a top end of 4x

[hazmatt]

I feel ya on the Steiner. I have that scope . It’s really not a precision scope as it’s more like an alternative to a magnified red dot imo. I am quick on the dot from a high port though. But yeah for shooting groups, meh. Let us know what you end up with. I’d be interested in an alternative. I’ve got a fund going for possibly an nx8 or similar. I’d like more magnification but I’d also like to keep the weight down.

[Esq.]

I have several SPR TYPE guns. I've been very happy with the B5 stock or the Magpul SL but yea, you need a good cheek weld for SPR work. For a scope I might suggest a Vortex Razor 1-6x. They have different reticles and surely you can find one you like.

[Circle_10]

Nice build! I like the look with the rifle buffer set up. Those groups are nothing to laugh at considering the conditions and a 4x scope. I am sure you can do better, but I would be happy with that

You could probably get a good price if selling the Steiner. Many people like them and market is in your favor. If you wanted to stay in the same price range s PST 2, xtr2, meopta optima 6 would be decent options to look at.

I think 1-6/8/10 makes sense for your application more than a top end of 4x

I was surprised to see how much the P4Xi is listed at now. I got mine for like $448 or something a couple years back. I’ve been seeing them advertised at over $700 lately. Yeah I definitely think more magnification would help. A 1-10x would be awesome but I’m pretty sure those are going to be pricey for awhile. I think I could make do with a 1-6 with a different reticle. Hell, being a SFP scope I could probably make do with the Steiner if it had a bit mire magnification.

I feel ya on the Steiner. I have that scope . It’s really not a precision scope as it’s more like an alternative to a magnified red dot imo. I am quick on the dot from a high port though. But yeah for shooting groups, meh. Let us know what you end up with. I’d be interested in an alternative. I’ve got a fund going for possibly an nx8 or similar. I’d like more magnification but I’d also like to keep the weight down.

Yeah I don’t want to be too harsh on the optic when I’m the one trying to force it into a niche it’s not really meant for. I just have never particularly enjoyed it. But I can see how it might be a nice choice for patrol use (Hence the “P” in P4Xi)!It’s been awhile since I shot it at close range on 1x but I remember it being alright aside from making the gun heavy and clunky feeling.

I have several SPR TYPE guns. I've been very happy with the B5 stock or the Magpul SL but yea, you need a good cheek weld for SPR work. For a scope I might suggest a Vortex Razor 1-6x. They have different reticles and surely you can find one you like.

I’ve always liked the basic AR fixed stock, A1 length generally. I guess I’m just really used to it if something.

I’m not really trying to build an actual “SPR” because I probably did a lot of things wrong with this build for that. But an AR with some enhanced capability at extended ranges is something I’ve really been wanting to get for a while. I’ll definitely be looking at the Vortex options.

[everready73]

There are not to many options for 1-10 period and the Vortex Razor is the best by far, but pricey

If you follow the Darklordofoptics (Ilya) he has some reviews on some of the lower cost options. He has a website opticthoughts.com i believe and youtube. He had some really good things to say about the Swampfox Arrowhead 1-10. There is a big thread on TOS on the brand. They are made in China, but getting some good feedback, especially on the optics. Mike who used to be at Primary Arms is one of their main guys and he is a good dude.

Just an option to consider, but if you are good with 6x on the high end their are better options IMO