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Thread: Tulsa, OK, slain officer Bodycam. *NSFW* hard to watch.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jellybean View Post
    Where did the gun come from? Did the driver have it, or did he take it off the cop he was fighting with?
    He had it under seat, he reaches for it at 9:25, but neither of them knew it until shots fired.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Averageman View Post
    Having watched all that and having read the entire thread, What is the preferred method for dealing with this?
    Talking him out didn't work.
    Tazing him didn't work.tying to drag him out didn't work.
    Spraying him with pepper spray didn't work.
    I have a feeling the Sergeant was helping train this guy right before it started going off the rails.
    Sadly having lost most of their compliance tools / impact weapons back in the 90s, they were at "shoot to stop" but failed to do so in a timely manner. And right now city leaders would rather loose a couple cops than have citywide rioting.

    I also think everyone is trying to "suck it up until November", meanwhile the radicals are trying to rachet it up before November so they can have their "look at THIS" incident. Also, and I can't believe I'm saying this...but I think we finally surpassed 1969. Between hostile takeovers of cities, targeted arson attacks on large scales, citizens trading regular gunfire and the demand that police be defunded / removed from some communities along with them being targeted and ambushed...I think we officially have crossed that line.

    It's not civil war yet, and anyone who has seen actual civil war understands why...but we have moved beyond general civil unrest. I still remember when the 2000 election was the most polarized moment in politics of my life, then it was 2008, then it was 2016 but damn if 2020 isn't gonna take the record no matter who actually wins.

    Sort of worried about the day after. I'm kind of hoping for a complete meltdown at the DNC prior to the election like we saw in 1968 but I think we are also seeing it and nobody cares.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

    كافر

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Averageman View Post
    Having watched all that and having read the entire thread, What is the preferred method for dealing with this?
    Talking him out didn't work.
    Tazing him didn't work.tying to drag him out didn't work.
    Spraying him with pepper spray didn't work.
    I have a feeling the Sergeant was helping train this guy right before it started going off the rails.
    You shove a gun in his face and loudly say “THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER WARNINGS” and mean it.

    See this is what I hate about Officers these days. Too nice or too mean. They are keep repeating themselves to someone who is not listening. Or they shoot a guy begging just to stay still like that Youre Fcked dust cover retard.

    When these hoods hear you repeat yourself too much they think you don’t mean it. It’s buying them time. That’s why you should have a non verbal cue to just hammer hard and fast.

    I am not gonna pretend to be Bill Blower but here’s what I would have done with as minimal MMQBing as I can muster. Once he started mewling about not wanting out of the car; Ol Sargey poo should have (in a rehearsed dialogue tree with his rookie so he knows said) “Okay he just wants a ticket. Let me go get the book.” Rookie maintains an alert and ready posture and Sarge doubles back where both officers are on same side. If they went to shooting then and there, that could have been crossfire. “Warning arcs” are bullshit.

    Then I would have had a better, clearer taser shot. Immediately upon returning he gets shocked and Rookie tries to SEPARATE FROM THE VEHICLE. If taser fails, it’s now a felony stop. Guns are drawn.

    When you spray someone, you empty that can. I don’t think the leads connected properly with the taser.

    Don’t repeat yourself. I get it. I get it. I get it. Goddamn do I of all people get it. You want compliance. You want a clean arrest. You don’t want to do paperwork. You don’t want to fight. You think if you reword it or say it differently that they will comply. You don’t want a lawsuit. You don’t want an investigation.

    BTDT, and I can speak to this with authority because I have been guilty of it.

    God forgive me but there are two types of people in this world: people you can talk to and people you have to beat on. He was not someone you can talk to or he would have done it. He was bracing, stalling, and phoning a friend.

    SO MANY GOD DAMNED COPS GO INTO SCREEN SAVER MODE OVER A FVCKING PHONE. It’s become Blue kryptonite. That phone is getting him his own back up. Who CARES if he is livestreaming or recording.

    You may well get a use of force investigation, you may even have to buy this man a new phone when you break it, but you will be alive.

    When you keep repeating yourself you sound like Charlie Brown’s teacher. They don’t care.

    The lesson learned is that a violent and gruesome arrest beats getting killed every day of the week.

    Quit telegraphing. This isn’t your kid brother being a pain. This is your potential murderer.

    We gotta go back old school. Talk to only those who will listen and obey and fist fvck everybody else.

    Stay Alert, Stay Alive

  4. #34
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    Painful.

    The POS was literally on the phone calling in reinforcements and they were still in pretty please mode.

    I get it, it can be very difficult to get a person out of a car if they do not want, especially if they have reasonable strength. But damn, this scenario and how to deal with has to be taught in the Academy.

    RIP.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Painful.

    The POS was literally on the phone calling in reinforcements and they were still in pretty please mode.

    I get it, it can be very difficult to get a person out of a car if they do not want, especially if they have reasonable strength. But damn, this scenario and how to deal with has to be taught in the Academy.

    RIP.
    It used to be. It also used to be I Want To Be A Cop 101 stuff.

    And yeah, when they ignore or stall...sometimes it's because they are preparing to kill you but they don't want to tip their hand if they can prevent it. Sometimes they are just retards who never had their parents say NO to them and they don't understand why they can't have their way.

    FF, as usual, covered a LOT of shit. I hate to MMQ a dead guy but I think this was preventable. The most important take away is "If you say it...you better mean it." It's a lot like pulling a gun hoping it means you won't have to shoot. If you aren't ready to back it up, the really bad people will key in on that almost immediately.

    I'm hoping they flush this turd and his accomplices, but I kind of lost faith in judicial outcomes a long time ago. Maybe this video will save the lives of some future LEOs who will be able to learn from it and continue to be polite and professional while at the same time always be running the "is this person planning to KILL ME right now" program at all times during all contacts.

    Seems like every so often we need to have a 1986 FBI shootout moment for everyone to look up, pay attention and learn something. I would have thought we'd still be on point from the 2014 shootings of LEOs but maybe that is asking too much.

    And as FF said, F that phone. Watch hands, hands kill. I can't think of anything worse that somebody might record me doing than me getting myself and the people I'm responsible for killed due to my unwillingness to control a situation.

    It ain't easy out there right now, but it ain't gonna get any easier if you get shot, get killed or fail to protect your partner.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

    كافر

  6. #36
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    Everything Firefly and SteyrAUG said. Especially about repeating yourself to street rats.

    This guy was clearly a No person. Continuing to talk to him and give additional commands was a waste of time, made the officers look weak, and gave him time to think. It was go time LONG before he called a friend, and definitely was go time when he picked up his phone and tried to make a call for his own backup.

    I never saw them personally, but I was told in the Academies I attended and in FTO training back when we performed patrol on dinosaurs that previous FBI studies of KIA officers showed that they generally shared the personality trait of being too nice. It is a lousy time to be wearing a badge.

    I have noticed that most of the incidents that have been major press incidents have started with poor officer safety tactics or poor execution of defensive/control tactics. Not to say that things would have turned out differently, but when you start a 40-meter dash 20 meters behind your opponent, your odds of winning drop dramatically.

    Maybe I just haven't met "that guy" yet, but I have never encountered anyone that was that hard to extract from a vehicle. Knock on wood, I hope I never do. I've been fortunate enough to know to and be able to use more...robust...vehicle extraction techniques than these two officers used. Control those damned arms and the hands that are attached to the ends of them.

    RIP, Sgt.
    Last edited by CrashAxe; 09-16-20 at 02:06.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Averageman View Post
    Damn that's hard to watch.
    I really kept hoping someone would smack him in the soup coolers with a couple feet of hickory.
    I've asked before, no more billy clubs? Seems like the tasers are not getting the job done. They need to up the amps on those. They never seem to work, but people think that they stop anyone in their tracks. Seems like the worst piece of kit ever. I'd rather see them go with not-intentionally-leathal bean bag shot gun rounds.

    So damn sad.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by FromMyColdDeadHand View Post
    I've asked before, no more billy clubs? Seems like the tasers are not getting the job done. They need to up the amps on those. They never seem to work, but people think that they stop anyone in their tracks. Seems like the worst piece of kit ever. I'd rather see them go with not-intentionally-leathal bean bag shot gun rounds.

    So damn sad.
    When the Taser first came to my department, my chief stated he was going to stop carrying his gun because the taser was so great. Of course, this was the same chief that mandated no impact weapons, and no 00 Buck in our shotguns...Slugs only. Not the most brilliant person in the world to say the least. Thankfully he resigned long ago.

  9. #39
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    Maybe this is one of those incidents like the Miami shootout and the Newhall “putting brass in pocket” one that changes the course of training. In this case on compliance?
    Last edited by Business_Casual; 09-16-20 at 08:49.

  10. #40
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    Just to throw a grenade into this conversation, the flip side of this is you don't know the guy is hiding a pistol. At the point the sergeant is there, all we have is an expired tag and no license. He's getting a ticket and his car is going to be towed, but that's all we have to go on.

    If there's no pistol and he's behaving this way refusing to comply, are folks OK with the officers beating the shit out of him over that?

    It sucks that officers are not granted the power of clairvoyance when they stop someone, but much of the posts above are why folks are marching up and down the cities pissed off.

    The sergeant was too nice and should have gone to the taser early on, but I'm reading some of the above bullshit like shoving a gun in his face and I completely get why folks are protesting.
    - Jeff

    “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.” ― George Orwell, 1984

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