Tulsa, OK, slain officer Bodycam. *NSFW* hard to watch.

[WillBrink]

Yeah but they really suck as an actual impact weapon. I still keep mine as a reacher stick or my “ten foot pole” or if something needs poked, prodded, or whatnot. They DO make a good vehicle window entry tool but as a whoopass stick, they fall short. I have bent them too much on people (yes, even swinging it the way it is meant to be swung). I mean, maglites just work. Except as a flashlight. I use my Surefire for seeing stuff, maglites for attitude adjustment

How many D batteries worth are we talking about ?

[just a scout]

How many D batteries worth are we talking about ?

Six was pretty good. Enough length and weight without getting in the way


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[SteyrAUG]

Let’s not take it too far. You have a reasonable expectation of privacy and a warrant is needed for your home. If police are smart, they show up with a warrant to your home.

Vehicles are on public roads and, by design, driving is NOT a privilege nor is it an absolute right. It is a Qualified right. It’s a long, lengthy, laborious, depressing gyre to get into but suffice it to say it isn’t inherently unconstitutional to require a tag and license.

In the tiers of police contact, they met the litmus for Articulable Reasonable Suspension. At the point of contact the subject was indeed detained and subject to lawful order.

Every traffic stop constitutes a detention. So, I don’t know why people think that is the time to argue, whine, and show ass. During this detention, you are subject to positive identification and lawful order. The officers were certainly well within their authority to remove him from the vehicle. Especially if it had an invalid tag and no insurance.

You do not need a warrant to Terry inventory the vehicle. You only need a warrant to go in locked or inaccessible parts of the vehicle.

With no ARS or Probable Cause, you can ignore an officer if he says hello or hi. But, that is terribly rude.

Sometimes hello is just hello.

Tl:dr

if you are detained, then you are beholden to follow lawful orders

I would add, even if you are right, you usually can't win on the side of the road.

I have had traffic stops where I was 100% positive I was correct and the officer was wrong, in every case I resolved it with the shift supervisor the next day. Everything got corrected, no lawyers necessary because I didn't escalate it into an arrest.

There are even situations where I was 100% wrong, usually some form of creative driving and I managed to not get a ticket because I simply know how to talk to the police in a calm and rationale manner and could "mostly explain" what the hell I was doing. That I'm never under the influence, don't take small shit personally and can own up to stupid driving maneuvers goes a long way.

[SteyrAUG]

And that POS chose a path in this contact which will get him either life without parole, or the needle. The other path only required him to stand outside of his vehicle, take the ticket(s) and ask the officers if he could call a friend for a ride. It's possible the handgun wouldn't have been found. They may have even waited with him while the ride was en-route. He chose poorly.

Or it could have been knocked down to some kind of misdemeanor. But this guy was willing to kill two cops so he "doesn't get in trouble" and with that mindset it was only a matter of time before he eventually killed someone or a lot of people. This is like me killing somebody because I forgot my wallet and can't pay for dinner. So many options exist besides "kill everyone in the restaurant" it isn't even funny. But somehow if you wack out a couple cops because you are "driving without paperwork" and are in possession of a "illegal firearm" 40% of the country goes "Yeah...I can understand why a dude might do that."

[SteyrAUG]

Were they oblivious or did they pick up on the fact this really was a rotten person? We are seeing police behavior of laissez faire to running away with rioters(who really would lay in to them) while simultaneously not dragging their feet on acting decisively against people defending themselves against the rioters, but currently pose no threat to police.

Problem is, killers usually don't telegraph their intentions. Really efficient killers are practiced and give zero warning. Really bad people sometimes know all of this stuff.

[SteyrAUG]

They weren’t totally oblivious but then they weren’t committed either. Too many warnings. Too much leeway. And the rookie actually backed up when he should have got him some of that ass.

It’s barbaric, but I honestly believe in Academy, everybody should put on a mouthguard and helmet and take a few good solid punches in the face. Just to know you can still keep going. Get over that fear of hurting people.

Like Fight Club or something.

You'd lost 50% of your PD and most of them would sue for "hostile work environment."

You and I think..."this shit will keep you alive...we are trying to keep you alive." 50% of the PD is thinking "this is BS...I just want to show up and do job like everyone else...I shouldn't have to be subjected to this kind of treatment...these guys are just being dicks."

How many cops do you know personally that probably shouldn't be cops? I can think of PDs where if it were up to me I'd shitcan 40% of their street cops and reassign another 20%. I think I could hire people from a radio call in show and have better candidates in most cases.

I've seen people who would have made great LEOs but didn't get it because they screwed up some level of the vetting process, said what they think rather than what people wanted to hear on the interview or simply didn't have "the look" that they wanted for their PD. I also know a bunch of scary dudes who sailed right through the process because they were coached, helped and some sketchy shit was overlooked.

[Dennis]

Most PDs lost ALL impact weapons following Rodney King. No more batons, PR-24s or anything because some undertrained individuals (hello LAPD) would lose their shit and turn everything into a riot baton.

LAPD still has ASPs and PR-24s.

Just no Maglites or SL20Xs.

[26 Inf]

Having watched all that and having read the entire thread, What is the preferred method for dealing with this?

This is my opinion and my opinion only, worth every bit you paid for it.

As the video starts, the officer who made the stop is standing, back to the offender, talking to the Sergeant. The Sergeant, probably, reacting more to how the other officer approached and positioned, seems to be looking into the strobes, perhaps he could see over them since it appears his bodycam is on his chest. In any event, the officer should have positioned himself so he could watch the vehicle HE had apparently stopped, and let the Sergeant position himself appropriately.

Talking him out didn't work.

Like FF said, they let it go on to long. I'm a nice guy, I believe verbal judo works on some folks, but, there are cues when it isn't and the officer went past those cues, circled back around, and then went past them again. Words you don't say - 'I'm going to tell you one last time' everytime you say that and don't take action, you empower the subject you are dealing with to further resist. Counting down, again, when you get to zero and don't do anything.....

Tazing him didn't work.tying to drag him out didn't work.

The TASER requires about 12 inches of probe spread, ideally in different well-muscled quadrants of the body to lock someone up. A good window is 7 to 15 feet. I don't know how far the Sergeant was when he deployed, but I'd think shy of seven feet. Additionally, had the tase been effective, the car was between the two officers. Getting him out of the vehicle and controlling to cuff without a disconnect would be problematic.

A better option would have been for the Sergeant to come to the driver's side, and do a probe in driver stun - you fire the taser at close range getting two darts in close together, and then ground the front of the taser into another part of the body at least 12-14 inches away (drive stun) - this locks the guy up, and your other officer can grab him and get him out for control.

The problem in that I was a TASER instructor for over a decade, all that is second nature to me, these guys probably had the original shake-and-bake class, then a minimal re-certification. TASER training should at a minimum be 16 hours, preferably 24. That way you get to do multiple reps of arrest and control drills. Nobody wants to do that (well, some officers might, but how often do you hear of agencies saying 'go beyond the minimum' for defensive tactics training?)

TASER, deployed properly would have worked, but, given the level of TASER training, understandable why it didn't.

Spraying him with pepper spray didn't work.

Again training. The introduction of OC into the subject's face should be a fvcking surprise. You should not display the OC projector to the suspect, you should not warn 'Comply or I'm going to spray you.' All those things just give the subject time to duck their head, throw there arm up, etc. Which this guy did.

Additionally, many officers are too nice when using OC, they give the subject a little baby spray instead of a continuous 2 to 3 second discharge into the target area.

Once again, a training issue. Many agencies give you OC and after initial training figure 'it's so simple a caveman could do it' and let it go.

Another thing that we need to keep in mind, many officers, even in large jurisdictions, can go for extended periods between handling belligerent folks like this. When incidents like this confront those officers, it may take them a while to get up to speed.

I hope officer who watch the video can learn from it.

God Speed SErgeant, hope the other officer recovers fully.

[glocktogo]

Anyone got the skinny on the other chap arrested & what roll he had / charges??

I believe there are two, but don’t quote me on it. The one who picked him up at the scene for accessory after the fact, then there’s the customer who traded the gun for heroin. He just got charged this week.

[yoni]

One thing would have changed everything, when they went to take him out of the car a sap to the jaw.