Tulsa, OK, slain officer Bodycam. *NSFW* hard to watch.

[jsbhike]

Whatever is objectively reasonable. Like I said, don’t take it too far. Everybody is looking for some limit to reach.

Wanting to know your identity on the side of the road and to ask you to exit vehicle until everything is sorted is not unreasonable.

Nobody is asking you to vogue or walk and chew bubblegum.

Police are lazy. I know. I’m lazy. I don’t like doing anything extra or crazy. I just want to do my thing and go home.

Why does everybody think a lawful detention is on par with Amon Goethe lining up Jews in Auschwitz?

A vast majority of the time, Officers stop people who need stopped. GOOD police work is boring.

99% of the time it is either a “slow it down”, a “hey buddy, get it fixed” or “Press hard, 5 copies, online pay, PD number, and court date are on ticket. Be blessed”.

Nobody (real) wants to honestly touch on you, go through your stuff, or be bothered with your personal mess.

I have run across too many used condoms and tampons and other nasty, fetid stuff to really want to go through anybody’s stuff if I do not have to.

99% of the time, private citizens don't harm police. 1 side of that interaction is expected to treat it as a life or death struggle while the other is supposed to be fine with whatever, no questions asked.

A few segments of society seem to have wildly differing views on what is reasonable though.

I have no problem with these 2 being arrested, put on trial, and, if convicted, suffering the consequences. That seems reasonable to me.

Meanwhile, something that seems reasonable to the powers that be, that I find entirely unreasonable, is Sgt. Billy Wheeler not being arrested on the scene(which means more than 1 bad apple on scene), no charges once it became known(multiple levels of rotten apples), and none of them ever suffering the slightest consequence for his action/their inaction.

https://www.fox23.com/news/trending/...OW6MOKFJMDDXI/

[jsbhike]

They weren’t totally oblivious but then they weren’t committed either. Too many warnings. Too much leeway. And the rookie actually backed up when he should have got him some of that ass.

It’s barbaric, but I honestly believe in Academy, everybody should put on a mouthguard and helmet and take a few good solid punches in the face. Just to know you can still keep going. Get over that fear of hurting people.

Like Fight Club or something.

That's what i am getting at. Some law abiding dude is easy to run roughshod over while the more feral leaning people that will attack aren't so fun to deal with and let alone. We are getting to see quite a bit of both lately.

[Firefly]

99% of the time, private citizens don't harm police. 1 side of that interaction is expected to treat it as a life or death struggle while the other is supposed to be fine with whatever, no questions asked.

A few segments of society seem to have wildly differing views on what is reasonable though.

I have no problem with these 2 being arrested, put on trial, and, if convicted, suffering the consequences. That seems reasonable to me.

Meanwhile, something that seems reasonable to the powers that be, that I find entirely unreasonable, is Sgt. Billy Wheeler not being arrested on the scene(which means more than 1 bad apple on scene), no charges once it became known(multiple levels of rotten apples), and none of them ever suffering the slightest consequence for his action/their inaction.

https://www.fox23.com/news/trending/...OW6MOKFJMDDXI/

You know what I had to learn the hard way?

It’s not normal to see nasty people all the time. It’s not normal to be exposed to bad things.

Regular people can go years without seeing a dead body or a crackhead defecating themselves.

Not all people are bad, but it’s different. I don’t know what to tell you about the black guy in your video.

I mean, the PD is downtown. Go sign up and show everyone how it’s done. Let me guess, “it doesn’t pay enough”.

[Firefly]

That's what i am getting at. Some law abiding dude is easy to run roughshod over while the more feral leaning people that will attack aren't so fun to deal with and let alone. We are getting to see quite a bit of both lately.

So now it’s about getting walking licks then?

Everybody wants to be Johnny Cochrane but nobody wants to be Ron Goldman

[CrashAxe]

They weren’t totally oblivious but then they weren’t committed either. Too many warnings. Too much leeway. And the rookie actually backed up when he should have got him some of that ass.

It’s barbaric, but I honestly believe in Academy, everybody should put on a mouthguard and helmet and take a few good solid punches in the face. Just to know you can still keep going. Get over that fear of hurting people.

Like Fight Club or something.

+1000

We have the Taser generation in LE, or as I think of them, Generation T. Many new officers have never been in ANY fight in their lives and been punched before, let alone a REAL fight. They have been so ingrained not to fight growing up in the zero tolerance environment of schools that they have a hard time going hands on with bad guys. Some just can't.

Agency and Academy taught defensive/control tactics training is usually designed more about lowering liability than effectiveness. If there is anywhere that that is not the case, I am not aware of it.

It used to be that an FTO quickly taught his trainee in the first few weeks how life really works when fighting an assaultive suspect. "No, your sankajo isn't what got him under control. That was me grabbing him by the balls and hair. He bounced off the wall because I shoved him against it to disrupt his thinking. Forget most of what they taught you at the academy. Most of that stuff will get you killed." "No, don't tell him you are going to spray him with OC. It will lose at least half its effectiveness that way. He should find out he is going to get sprayed when he feels it in his face."

Then the Taser came along. True hands-on became less common during FTO training, and the old ways became old war stories.

The Taser generation expects the Taser to solve all problems. It works well, building a false sense of security for members of Generation T until it doesn't work. When a member of Generation T encounters a true believer or a feral and the Taser fails for their first time, if they haven't already been taught how to really fight, both on their feet and on the ground, or are unable to overcome their inhibitions, they are often at a loss as to how to handle things and vapor lock. It is a good way to die by the numbers.

Kind of like how you need to know how to use a map and compass in case your GPS dies, it is critical to have the skills and mindset to be able to with no Buck Rogers toys, just your own hands, feet, elbows, knees, and head, close with a bad guy, break him down, dominate him in a ground fight, and get cuffs on him, control him until help arrives, or whatever more drastic action may be necessary. It isn't pretty. But it beats getting beaten to a pulp and shot with your own gun.

[WillBrink]

99% of the time, private citizens don't harm police. 1 side of that interaction is expected to treat it as a life or death struggle while the other is supposed to be fine with whatever, no questions asked.

And 99% of the time LE does not harm citizens not committing crimes. Ten of thousands of interactions per year or more that end with no drama. Terrible things do happen, bad cops exist, etc etc, and there is a blue wall of silence, yet by the numbers, people are very safe in this nation as far as LEO is concerned. They can always do a better job, but citizens have to play their part in that too.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

There is always the discussion of the Black Family Talk. The version in circulation seems to be outdated, and in need of being expanded in deployment. I think that as part of getting your license, that you should have to watch videos of what and what not to do, and then what the force ladder looks like for non-compliance, and then you get tested on it. No way to say that you don't understand what is happening- by officer or driver.

[john armond]

I’d like to add that what would make me seek death penalty was the way he did that quick ‘scan and assess’.

I want to say after he started calling his buddy; that’s when he decided these officers’ fates.

I also think about the great divide. One officer was too rookie the other officer too comfortable.

Stay hungry. Stay vicious.
Every day could be your last. Comfort kills. Not respecting that anybody could break bad, kills.
You will see this again.

Scan and Assess, and the fact that he stood over the officer and put three more rounds in him should be more than sufficient for a death penalty. This part was edited out of the video, but was stated in the report, and by either the Chief or the Mayor. I linked to several articles from different sources stating same.

[sandsunsurf]

Lots of reasonable questions and responses here. I'll throw in my $0.02 for a few:

Short answer to where the deadliest failure was: Cops these days aren't trained or experienced in the hands-on part of the fight and arrest. In this case, they grabbed arms and danced and lost the suspect's arms multiple times. Forget all of the other use of force options; the taser and OC failed. And even when they work, you STILL HAVE TO PUT HANDS ON THE BAD GUY. I have posted before and talked with several LEO friends that for the last 5-10 years we are seeing a lack of ability and desire to go hands on (see Generation T above from @CrashAxe). When everything else failed, they should have committed to hands on (or done it earlier, thus not needing increased levels of force). Grab the arm and hold on (better experience and training makes this doable) and lock out a joint and take him out of the car, or just grab his dang hair and pull his head forcefully to the ground. Where the head goes, the body follows. As the fight really became more of a fight, then knowing how to put him in a clinch and deliver a knee to the body or head would have been legit and useful. It's a tight space, so maybe that wouldn't have worked, but as the arm gets pulled away for the 4th or 5th time, maybe an elbow or "closed fist strike" to the temple would have been the better option. Any way you put it, it was way past TIME TO COMMIT. The officers lost control of him at least 9 times. The rookie officer does try a clinch once the bad guy is out of the car, but he doesn't know what to do from there and that's when bad guy circles and gets a gun. The officer would have been better off doing an old-school hair-pull take down. I'd love to see a Gracie Breakdown of this..

Early in the stop, the Sgt should not have continued to give commands that aren't being followed. Ask, tell, make (as said above).

I like the idea of the Sgt having a "secret phrase" then moving to the same side, but not realistic in many agencies (maybe with a partner you work with every day). Then after that time in the video is when the Taser fails. It "fails" out of user error (or at least a known fact about tasers) which is that the officer is too close for the prongs to spread far enough to get actual muscle "lock-up". That's where a drive-stun is appropriate. Discharge the taser, then move the taser far away from the prong location and make secondary contact with the taser muzzle- in this case, open the passenger door discharge at dude's thigh, then drive the taser to the chest or under the armpit. Then the rookie can come in and get a good grip on the bad guy and they can make a plan for extraction from there.

Pepper spray can be effective for getting the fight out of many people, but as mentioned a focused person can fight through it pretty easily. The officer should have made SURE the OC went into the eyes and mouth and nose, but too much can keep the carrier from evaporating enough to really let the OC burn.

Regards to a K9, yes K9 for vehicle extractions is useful, but (sorry K9 guys) they're never there when you need them. Just like the helicopter. Somebody suggested making this a barricaded subject type call, but two things come to mind: First, it's still just a vehicle code violation. Second, we don't know if the keys are still in the car, but disengaging and leaving the bad guy in the car seems like a recipe for him to either drive away or get the gun and be ready for the next victim officers.

Shoving a gun in his face is, in my opinion, a bad idea. I subscribe to the mantra Never Go Hands On With A Gun In Your Own Hand. I'd rather see more committed hands on.

[AndyLate]

It’s barbaric, but I honestly believe in Academy, everybody should put on a mouthguard and helmet and take a few good solid punches in the face. Just to know you can still keep going. Get over that fear of hurting people.

Like Fight Club or something.

The Army's combatives program requires you to "clinch" an experienced opponent for just that reason - you learn to fight through the punches and just do what you trained to do.

Andy