So you have a new AR. How to test?

[ubet]

Dude, I've pulled the trigger on AR15's too many times over the years to a click or dead trigger. (And watched others do the same) I do not trust them in general although I've had a few that ran well.

My last two new uppers didnt work at all. (Model 1, PSA) I've had alot of rifles, several examples of each, and AR's top the list of stoppages. I hate stoppages and refuse to accept them as routine.

I also hate trying to get a rifle with issues to work right spending time, money, and ammo and usually without results. If I get a gun that has issues I will sell it at a loss with disclosure because I'm done with that crap.

I just got a replacement Beretta Tomcat. I bought it new in 2019. Wasnt reliable for the first 500 rds. Then the frame cracked. (Not unheard of with these but they still work fine) it was reliable for about 150 rds until the slide broke. Non-functional at that point. Beretta sent me another pistol and I quickly sold it.

(Edited to add: I had JUST decided i was willing to carry this gun to protect my life literally 2 minutes before it broke. I was just going to finish a box of ammo when at about 800 rounds it catastrophically failed)

I've bought new Glocks, other pistols, revolvers, shotguns, and rifles that didnt work right over the decades.

I've only got two rifles now. They've been reliable. I want to sell one ( Beretta ARX) because I hear the aftermarket trigger in it has a problem (hammer suddenly breaks) and the factory trigger stinks. So I've got another of the other rifle coming.

I need to trust it but dont want to spend $1k in ammo testing / training with it.

PSA, that is your problem. I think your problems are a lot more you buying cheap junk and then blaiming the gun when they fail and not yourself for buying cheap junk. You get what you pay for.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RMC51]

The reality is that a weapon at 50 rounds in many cases is a different weapon at 500 or 800 rounds of continued use. The reason you see many sticks go down in weekend warrior classes is that people do not adequately test and hard use their weapons and it shows

Military only has limited test function because armorers are there and will take over once delivered etc etc so that example is foolish. Plenty of weapons malfunction and have to go to the box for repair, etc.

run it dry initially (lube masks issues and the rifle will absolutely run fine dry), run it hard, and for the love of God run it more than a few hundred rounds of hard use in one session at minimum. Bring home, inspect, clean, lube and have at it

While a reliable platform that is now a commoditized product, I've seen plenty go down under hard use while looking great with the occasional mag or two at the range. Agree to buy quality stick or when building at home to use quality parts but that's not a guarantee for success or reliability as we've seen every manufacturer throw out some lemons. Not unheard of, uncommon, or unexpected so each stick needs to be individually assessed, not the manufacturer

Anybody here heard of this guy?
I went back and pulled this up.

https://hu-hu.facebook.com/LarryVick...4349591992605/

I miss Tac Tv. Thanks Larry for the good times and all the info.
I loved the Glock 20 300yds

[RUTGERS95]

Anybody here heard of this guy?
I went back and pulled this up.

https://hu-hu.facebook.com/LarryVick...4349591992605/

I miss Tac Tv. Thanks Larry for the good times and all the info.
I loved the Glock 20 300yds

he's correct, oil in the chamber, on bullets and generally over use will not have negative impact. Most people know this but alas, old lore dies hard..lol The reality is that we are talking apples to oranges here however.

I liked tac tv as well and a myriad of other shows. I miss guns on tv...lol

[RUTGERS95]

Anybody here heard of this guy?
I went back and pulled this up.

https://hu-hu.facebook.com/LarryVick...4349591992605/

I miss Tac Tv. Thanks Larry for the good times and all the info.
I loved the Glock 20 300yds

he's correct, oil in the chamber, on bullets and generally over use will not have negative impact. Most people know this but alas, old lore dies hard..lol The reality is that we are talking apples to oranges here however.

I liked tac tv as well and a myriad of other shows. I miss guns on tv...lol

[RMC51]

The reality is that a weapon at 50 rounds in many cases is a different weapon at 500 or 800 rounds of continued use. The reason you see many sticks go down in weekend warrior classes is that people do not adequately test and hard use their weapons and it shows

Military only has limited test function because armorers are there and will take over once delivered etc etc so that example is foolish. Plenty of weapons malfunction and have to go to the box for repair, etc.

run it dry initially (lube masks issues and the rifle will absolutely run fine dry), run it hard, and for the love of God run it more than a few hundred rounds of hard use in one session at minimum. Bring home, inspect, clean, lube and have at it

While a reliable platform that is now a commoditized product, I've seen plenty go down under hard use while looking great with the occasional mag or two at the range. Agree to buy quality stick or when building at home to use quality parts but that's not a guarantee for success or reliability as we've seen every manufacturer throw out some lemons. Not unheard of, uncommon, or unexpected so each stick needs to be individually assessed, not the manufacturer

he's correct, oil in the chamber, on bullets and generally over use will not have negative impact. Most people know this but alas, old lore dies hard..lol The reality is that we are talking apples to oranges here however.

I liked tac tv as well and a myriad of other shows. I miss guns on tv...lol

What! Are you a Democrat and not hear and see what is right in front of you.

The AR is a machine, it has moving metal parts and it needs lubrication to work correctly. Will a machine run without lubrication? Yes, for a while!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you have a low oil warning light on your car, that is a machine that needs oil also, Ar's don't have low oil warning lights. I have a generator that has a low oil cut off and will not run if it does not have oil. Maybe AR's need that feature. LOL

You need to go back and watch, and don't forget to listen this time to what Larry said. It is in the first 20-30 seconds of this copy of Tac-tv.
I will paraphrase it for you. "No lube or very little lube, that is a myth"
You maybe seeing apples and oranges. I see point on, The AR needs lube!!!!!!!!!!! NO oranges, run your AR lubed! Advise from a real professional, Larry Vickers.

[lysander]

he's correct, oil in the chamber, on bullets and generally over use will not have negative impact.

Thank you, but I will continue to get my engineering advise from actual engineers, with actual degrees.

"Effects of Lubrication and Pressure on Bolt Face Forces", by Michlin, South and Brosseau, Weapons and Materials Research Directorate, Army Research Laboratory, October 2010:

Abstract:
"In this research, the effects that the level of lubrication has on the case mouth pressure and bolt force of a M16 are quantified. The case mouth pressure and resulting bolt force were measured for M855 and M855A1 cartridges as a function of the level of lubrication in a modified M16. The research found that the level of lubrication on the ammunition, and specifically the lubrication between the cartridge and the chamber of the weapon, greatly changes the level of force on the bolt face. The average difference between the conditions of heavy and normal lubrication was found to be 3000 lb. This force is a linear function with the peak pressure of the cartridge case and the peak forces on the bolt occur prior to the unlocking of the bolt and projectile exit. The results of the experiments are presented and the ramifications of the force on the M855 cartridge case are discussed."

For reference, the average normal (measured) force on the bolt at 70 degrees F, with M855 ammunition 2073 pounds, with M855A1, 2560 lbs. At the same temperature, but with a heavily oiled cartridge case, the measured force on the bolt face was 5230 lbs for M855 and 5796 lbs for M855A1

If the ammunition temperature gets to 125 degrees F (which is easy to do if left in direct sunlight for some time) the numbers are:

M855
normal - 2526 lbs
oiled - 5553 lbs

M855A1
normal - 2721 lbs
oiled - 5875 lbs





Outside of the chamber, I will agree that there is no such thing as "too much oil", inside the chamber, things are different.

[1168]

Thanks for continuing to post here.

Thank you, but I will continue to get my engineering advise from actual engineers, with actual degrees.

"Effects of Lubrication and Pressure on Bolt Face Forces", by Michlin, South and Brosseau, Weapons and Materials Research Directorate, Army Research Laboratory, October 2010:

Abstract:
"In this research, the effects that the level of lubrication has on the case mouth pressure and bolt force of a M16 are quantified. The case mouth pressure and resulting bolt force were measured for M855 and M855A1 cartridges as a function of the level of lubrication in a modified M16. The research found that the level of lubrication on the ammunition, and specifically the lubrication between the cartridge and the chamber of the weapon, greatly changes the level of force on the bolt face. The average difference between the conditions of heavy and normal lubrication was found to be 3000 lb. This force is a linear function with the peak pressure of the cartridge case and the peak forces on the bolt occur prior to the unlocking of the bolt and projectile exit. The results of the experiments are presented and the ramifications of the force on the M855 cartridge case are discussed."

For reference, the average normal (measured) force on the bolt at 70 degrees F, with M855 ammunition 2073 pounds, with M855A1, 2560 lbs. At the same temperature, but with a heavily oiled cartridge case, the measured force on the bolt face was 5230 lbs for M855 and 5796 lbs for M855A1

If the ammunition temperature gets to 125 degrees F (which is easy to do if left in direct sunlight for some time) the numbers are:

M855
normal - 2526 lbs
oiled - 5553 lbs

M855A1
normal - 2721 lbs
oiled - 5875 lbs





Outside of the chamber, I will agree that there is no such thing as "too much oil", inside the chamber, things are different.

[MistWolf]

Thank you, but I will continue to get my engineering advise from actual engineers, with actual degrees.

"Effects of Lubrication and Pressure on Bolt Face Forces", by Michlin, South and Brosseau, Weapons and Materials Research Directorate, Army Research Laboratory, October 2010:

Abstract:
"In this research, the effects that the level of lubrication has on the case mouth pressure and bolt force of a M16 are quantified. The case mouth pressure and resulting bolt force were measured for M855 and M855A1 cartridges as a function of the level of lubrication in a modified M16. The research found that the level of lubrication on the ammunition, and specifically the lubrication between the cartridge and the chamber of the weapon, greatly changes the level of force on the bolt face. The average difference between the conditions of heavy and normal lubrication was found to be 3000 lb. This force is a linear function with the peak pressure of the cartridge case and the peak forces on the bolt occur prior to the unlocking of the bolt and projectile exit. The results of the experiments are presented and the ramifications of the force on the M855 cartridge case are discussed."

For reference, the average normal (measured) force on the bolt at 70 degrees F, with M855 ammunition 2073 pounds, with M855A1, 2560 lbs. At the same temperature, but with a heavily oiled cartridge case, the measured force on the bolt face was 5230 lbs for M855 and 5796 lbs for M855A1

If the ammunition temperature gets to 125 degrees F (which is easy to do if left in direct sunlight for some time) the numbers are:

M855
normal - 2526 lbs
oiled - 5553 lbs

M855A1
normal - 2721 lbs
oiled - 5875 lbs





Outside of the chamber, I will agree that there is no such thing as "too much oil", inside the chamber, things are different.

This is getting copied to my notes.

[Disciple]

This is getting copied to my notes.

Mine too! Thanks lysander.

[RUTGERS95]

Thank you, but I will continue to get my engineering advise from actual engineers, with actual degrees.

"Effects of Lubrication and Pressure on Bolt Face Forces", by Michlin, South and Brosseau, Weapons and Materials Research Directorate, Army Research Laboratory, October 2010:

Abstract:
"In this research, the effects that the level of lubrication has on the case mouth pressure and bolt force of a M16 are quantified. The case mouth pressure and resulting bolt force were measured for M855 and M855A1 cartridges as a function of the level of lubrication in a modified M16. The research found that the level of lubrication on the ammunition, and specifically the lubrication between the cartridge and the chamber of the weapon, greatly changes the level of force on the bolt face. The average difference between the conditions of heavy and normal lubrication was found to be 3000 lb. This force is a linear function with the peak pressure of the cartridge case and the peak forces on the bolt occur prior to the unlocking of the bolt and projectile exit. The results of the experiments are presented and the ramifications of the force on the M855 cartridge case are discussed."

For reference, the average normal (measured) force on the bolt at 70 degrees F, with M855 ammunition 2073 pounds, with M855A1, 2560 lbs. At the same temperature, but with a heavily oiled cartridge case, the measured force on the bolt face was 5230 lbs for M855 and 5796 lbs for M855A1

If the ammunition temperature gets to 125 degrees F (which is easy to do if left in direct sunlight for some time) the numbers are:

M855
normal - 2526 lbs
oiled - 5553 lbs

M855A1
normal - 2721 lbs
oiled - 5875 lbs





Outside of the chamber, I will agree that there is no such thing as "too much oil", inside the chamber, things are different.

good for you, Mine comes from 40yrs of usage, Vicker's comments not withstanding on this in support, with more rounds downrange than said engineers. To each their own but my sticks work just fine. That said, I could pull up a myriad of examples where 'testing' and 'engineers' have been more wrong than Biden yelling Joe on tv........

Back on point, I don't run new firearms wet, I run them dry to see if issues may arise and it's served me and others very well. Dry Lube if you want but a couple hundred rounds of dry usage will not materially damage and will allow you to see operation and issue that arise from tolerances etc..


I know everyone here is super mall ninja, weekend class, 3 gun warrior but the reality is this not rocket science and the AR really doesn't need a lot of lube at all to function well

carry on