Offset RDS as primary, FSB secondary?

**Disciple** · 09-19-20, 16:51

Referencing statements from recent threads.

Originally Posted by markm

Hell yes. An AR with no fixed FSB is not a serious fighting gun to me.

Originally Posted by El Vaquero

I’m not worried about my red dot failing per se, but there've been several times here in the hot Texas humidity where I’ve deployed my rifle from my nice a/c cooled Tahoe only to find my optic is completely fogged up and unusable. At the point pulling it off and switching to irons is the only way to go. Aside from that I can’t thing of too many other reasons.

Originally Posted by Valhalla

It's not a new idea, many have run offset RDS. But most would never consider flipping the roles between the offset and the magnified, and thus most offset mounts were designed, naturally, as a "back-up" solution... tucking away the offset RDS and making it extremely hard to use.

There are two reasons for it. First, target acquisition with a offset red dot is fast, if not faster, than a RDS at 12 o'clock. Try this - hold up your fist in front of your chest like you are about ready to punch someone. Now look at your fist. If you were holding a stick, would that stick be pointing straight up? No... because your elbow/wrist doesn't naturally bend that way. Bringing your gun up from low-ready is the same way; traditionally you have to lift the gun AND rotate it so your primary optic, at 12 o'clock, lines up with your eye. With offset red dot, you only have to bring the gun up without rotating it much (if at all), and the red dot (provided it's setup at the right height) would line up naturally against your eye.

The second reason, is that I would prefer a wide-range of magnification outside of the reflex sight, and nobody makes a "variable" flip-to-side magnifier. So for me to have both, I have to rely on LPVO and they don't make offset mounts for LPVO...

Placing a red dot sight in-line with FSB irons partially occludes the view through the RDS and leaves the view of the irons vulnerable to fogging. For this combination (RDS & FSB iron sights) would it be better to place the RDS on an offset mount? I haven't used offset sights yet but if as Valhalla wrote it "is [as] fast, if not faster, than a RDS at 12 o'clock" it seems appealing. Would it cause problems for barricade shooting, urban prone, etc.? Are there solutions for these apart from reverting to the iron sights?

**Five_Point_Five_Six** · 09-19-20, 17:10

Originally Posted by Disciple

Referencing statements from recent threads.

Placing a red dot sight in-line with FSB irons partially occludes the view through the RDS and leaves the view of the irons vulnerable to fogging. For this combination (RDS & FSB iron sights) would it be better to place the RDS on an offset mount? I haven't used offset sights yet but if as Valhalla wrote it "is [as] fast, if not faster, than a RDS at 12 o'clock" it seems appealing. Would it cause problems for barricade shooting, urban prone, etc.? Are there solutions for these apart from reverting to the iron sights?

There's a reason Valhalla is the only guy saying an offset RDS is as fast if not faster. It's because most find the opposite to be true.

The FSB partially blocking the view through a red dot is really a non issue. There is plenty of usable sight window there with the FSB present.

**Disciple** · 09-19-20, 17:24

Originally Posted by Five_Point_Five_Six

There's a reason Valhalla is the only guy saying an offset RDS is as fast if not faster. It's because most find the opposite to be true.

Do you believe that is due to familiarity, or ergonomics?

**vicious_cb** · 09-19-20, 17:26

I dont think its fast(er) to have an offset RDS, you can be just as fast with practice but you would need to get used to using an offset sight when switching shoulders.

Not to mention it would completely mess with my concept from aiming "mag side high" when rolling the gun.

Basically your concept would needlessly complicate things for what is essentially an emergency scenario that is unlikely to happen in the first place. Im a firm believer in optimizing your set up for the 99% of situations and having a reasonable plan for the 1% of things going sideways.

**lordmorgul** · 09-20-20, 17:38

Offset Irons is a better plan. Yes, offset works fine if practiced but it’s not a better solution. It takes more practice to ensure the sight is over bore (no cant) for longer shots.

Andrew - Lancaster, CA
NRA Life Member, CRPA member, Calguns.net contributor, CGF / SAF / FPC / CCRKBA / GOA / NAGR / NRA-ILA contributor, USCCA member - Support your defenders!

**maximus83** · 09-21-20, 11:56

I don't see the case for offset RDS as primary. Definitely open to offset irons and thinking about it for once special case: 2 rifles that have DMR-type magnification (2-10x, 2.5-20x), so they need something for backup and to cover 1x cases. Given the backup role, I like the idea of BUIS there rather than another sight that has a lens that can fog, can run out of battery, etc.

On RDS-equipped rifles I have one of each: (a) FSB front and fixed LMT rail-mounted rear plus lower 1/3 Aimpoint on a QD, and (b) inline folded BUIS with lower 1/3 Aimpoint on a QD, where I'll 'rip and flip' if needed. Works for me, has worked for a lot of BTDT guys, no plans to change.

**militarymoron** · 09-21-20, 17:56

I have a couple of scoped uppers set up with offset mini RDS. I thought that it'd be as quick as a standard set up (not offset) but didn't find it to be the case for me. It might be familiarity, but also found that a canted rifle stock wasn't in the optimal position on the shoulder. I did just fine with it, but wouldn't want my primary optic canted. Also, if you have a muzzle comp or brake; even an A2 comp, it can move the muzzle in an unwanted direction.

As for whether the wrist is in a more natural position or not when the rifle is canted, I don't know. The wrist follows the elbow, so if the elbow is tucked in (no chicken wing), the hand is more vertical. Either way, I'm pretty used to holding a glass or mug vertically in front of my chest when I drink, which isn't too far off from gripping the rifle's pistol grip. I mean, go to any BBQ or bar, and you'll see folk with beer bottles held vertically in the 'low ready' position. We've trained like this ever since we could hold a cup!

**titsonritz** · 09-21-20, 18:42

Worth watching on the subject of canting your rifle...

**JoshNC** · 09-23-20, 21:04

Originally Posted by Five_Point_Five_Six

There's a reason Valhalla is the only guy saying an offset RDS is as fast if not faster. It's because most find the opposite to be true.

The FSB partially blocking the view through a red dot is really a non issue. There is plenty of usable sight window there with the FSB present.

Originally Posted by Disciple

Do you believe that is due to familiarity, or ergonomics?

It’s probably because Valhalla used to make airsoft stuff.