GAO report on "Federal Tactical Teams"

[chuckman]

I'm not one to talk about government waste and bloated big government in my state, as they wrote the book on it. But one thing we do have is a single state police agency that encompasses all of the above state agencies you listed, as well as being the primary LE agency for towns without a municipal PD. We do have environmental police that are a separate agency though, but given the nature of their work, combining them with the State Police wouldn't work. The downside to this is the fact that, first, we don't have county government and therefore no sheriff's offices or county PDs. While there are some very good state troopers that I know, the State Police, as an agency, cannot be trusted to refuse unconstitutional orders in the way that county sheriffs have been doing in many states. They also have a lot of control over POST standards as well, so they could easily disband any local PD or decertify any officer that didn't comply with such orders. So there is some downside to centralizing law enforcement.

In terms of tactical teams, the only full time team unit in my state is a very small segment of the State Police tactical team, and I think they do a lot more research and development of tactics and equipment than actual door kicking. Most of the very small agencies here usually rely on the State Police SWAT team for tactical response, and most of the medium and larger agencies are part of regional teams. Most of the cities have their own teams. That being said, again, all these teams, including the bigger city teams, are part time and not really ready for major incidents. They really could combine the SP, regional, and municipal teams into 1 statewide full time team (with part time reserves) and it would likely cost less and have more capabilities.

I interviewed and turned down a job with the Maryland State Police back in the mid-90s, a trooper medic. I really really like their model and I like how they did things. It sounds very similar.

[sundance435]

The baffling thing for me about this report was that Marshalls' SOG numbers were sensitive, but not HRT, Secret Service, and Nuclear Security.

The equipment list is more telling as far as what "specializations" some of these teams have, which is to say, none. No thermal, breaching devices, even flash bangs, etc. = a very basic, 100,000-person city "SWAT" team. Based solely on this article, I would say there's clearly room for consolidation. The only reason there isn't is because these agencies can't play together and they want to use their own guys, even if they're not the most qualified. See, "Waco", for proof. In my few years in LE we interacted quite a bit with federal LE. Most of the grunt work is done by the teams they form from local PDs/Sheriff. Those same guys probably have lots of experience kicking doors and executing warrants, but protocol dictates they call in a "team". So there's another reason "SWAT" teams have proliferated in general - they're required by policy for stuff that the lowspeed/high drag guys, for better or worse, used to do routinely.

Does anyone really think ATF needs SWAT teams? EOD, yes. SWAT, no. Call the FBI.

[BoringGuy45]

I interviewed and turned down a job with the Maryland State Police back in the mid-90s, a trooper medic. I really really like their model and I like how they did things. It sounds very similar.

Maryland troopers are full service and have jurisdiction everywhere, but usually the county LE agencies, either sheriffs or county PDs depending on the county, handle most calls for service off the highway. Troopers mostly just back them up and do highway patrol, but yeah, they are more consolidated than states like NC that just have separate highway patrol, state investigation, etc. The county agencies in MD, however, usually cover the entire county regardless of municipal boundaries, and most of MD is unincorporated anyway. Around the Baltimore and Washington metro areas, the county agencies are very large and self sustaining and require very little assistance from MSP. Most of them have full time tactical teams as well. This is good for MSP as they can focus their special services on helping the smaller county agencies in the south and western parts of the state.

[okie]

It's a private federal army that they sneaked in under the radar. Especially now with everything coordinated under DHS, all these various operator types can be brought together into a literal fighting force lickity split.

[dwhitehorne]

Funny they show HHS with 2 people. That's the Doctor and Paramedic assigned to the USPP SWAT. They are a great resource and provide valuable tactical medical training (TCCC) to patrol during in-service. David

[dwhitehorne]

It's a private federal army that they sneaked in under the radar. Especially now with everything coordinated under DHS, all these various operator types can be brought together into a literal fighting force lickity split.

The issue is with Feds just like the State/local teams is 12 to 18 guys just doesn't cut it for a long operation or clearing a large buildings. Years ago I was one of many on perimeter in the DC "Tractor Man" incident. Providing 24/7 CS and SWAT coverage for multiple days is not something two sniper teams in a 12 person SWAT units can handle so the Feds do bring in others to assist. In the Navy yard active shooter incident the building was multiple floors that were a city block long. Imagine coming through a stairway door onto a floor with hundreds of cubicles to clear. Two teams of 6 in DC is fully staffed for us. You run out of bodies quickly when covering large areas. Imagine being on long cover in a hallway that is 300 yards long. Some of the older Federal buildings could accommodate two way vehicle traffic in the hallways. David

[okie]

The issue is with Feds just like the State/local teams is 12 to 18 guys just doesn't cut it for a long operation or clearing a large buildings. Years ago I was one of many on perimeter in the DC "Tractor Man" incident. Providing 24/7 CS and SWAT coverage for multiple days is not something two sniper teams in a 12 person SWAT units can handle so the Feds do bring in others to assist. In the Navy yard active shooter incident the building was multiple floors that were a city block long. Imagine coming through a stairway door onto a floor with hundreds of cubicles to clear. Two teams of 6 in DC is fully staffed for us. You run out of bodies quickly when covering large areas. Imagine being on long cover in a hallway that is 300 yards long. Some of the older Federal buildings could accommodate two way vehicle traffic in the hallways. David

Literally why we have the National Guard. As prescribed in the constitution.

[BoringGuy45]

It's a private federal army that they sneaked in under the radar. Especially now with everything coordinated under DHS, all these various operator types can be brought together into a literal fighting force lickity split.

I wouldn't say it's under the radar. This information is pretty open for the public to see. Also, not everything is coordinated by DHS; it's DOJ and DHS.

There's way too much inconsistency between all these teams for them to quickly be organized into some domestic army. FBI HRT is the only LE team that is actually the equivalent of military JSOC special mission units. The CG MSRT is probably pretty close to the SEALs in terms of VBSS and maritime counterterrorism abilities, though it doesn't sound like they do any over the beach stuff. But it sounds like these are the only two teams capable of actual special operations combat and not simply high risk law enforcement operations. Other than that? Most of the other teams appear to be no more trained for actual combat than local LE agencies' SWAT teams. Altogether, the combined members of all these tactical teams is only amounts to a couple thousand overall. That's not really a private army that should be greatly feared as some unchecked threat to freedom.

[HardToHandle]

Literally why we have the National Guard. As prescribed in the constitution.

Respectfully, the term “National Guard” is nowhere in the Constitution. They operate under the militia concepts of the constitution. As we all know, the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act effectively bars federal troops from any law enforcement mission.

And let me assure you, getting the Guard out for an active shooter would be clown show extraordinaire. A few years back, I had a one-star dual hatted Joint Task Force commander tell me “I will never ever authorize my soldiers to carry weapons inside the US”. I paraphrased his response back to him and asked him to repeat it, which he did verbatim.

There are some limited cases, such as a shooter on Guard base, where scenarios could play out differently. Those are scenarios where established ROEs exist, lawyers have sold off on it and likely Governors have provided delegated authorities. That means only in Red States.

Anyone who expects the Guard to provide any meaningful assistance is at best wholly uninformed. It would be faster to ask another country for assistance.

[okie]

I wouldn't say it's under the radar. This information is pretty open for the public to see. Also, not everything is coordinated by DHS; it's DOJ and DHS.

There's way too much inconsistency between all these teams for them to quickly be organized into some domestic army. FBI HRT is the only LE team that is actually the equivalent of military JSOC special mission units. The CG MSRT is probably pretty close to the SEALs in terms of VBSS and maritime counterterrorism abilities, though it doesn't sound like they do any over the beach stuff. But it sounds like these are the only two teams capable of actual special operations combat and not simply high risk law enforcement operations. Other than that? Most of the other teams appear to be no more trained for actual combat than local LE agencies' SWAT teams. Altogether, the combined members of all these tactical teams is only amounts to a couple thousand overall. That's not really a private army that should be greatly feared as some unchecked threat to freedom.

I never said they were trained for military operations. In terms of paramilitary operations, though, they're streamlined and top notch. They're the culmination of all the fears of our founders. An army of soldiers meant not for repelling invasions, but for policing the people themselves.

Don't kid yourself either when it comes to their lack of direct military capabilities. Wherever their paramilitary capabilities come up short, they're now heavily integrated into the actual military. So if they ever get to the point where they need mortars and airstrikes, they can simply attach whatever national guard resources that they need.