GAO report on "Federal Tactical Teams"

[okie]

Respectfully, the term “National Guard” is nowhere in the Constitution. They operate under the militia concepts of the constitution. As we all know, the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act effectively bars federal troops from any law enforcement mission.

And let me assure you, getting the Guard out for an active shooter would be clown show extraordinaire. A few years back, I had a one-star dual hatted Joint Task Force commander tell me “I will never ever authorize my soldiers to carry weapons inside the US”. I paraphrased his response back to him and asked him to repeat it, which he did verbatim.

There are some limited cases, such as a shooter on Guard base, where scenarios could play out differently. Those are scenarios where established ROEs exist, lawyers have sold off on it and likely Governors have provided delegated authorities. That means only in Red States.

Anyone who expects the Guard to provide any meaningful assistance is at best wholly uninformed. It would be faster to ask another country for assistance.

That's only because the guard has been gutted of its original purpose as the militia, and has been reduced to simply being an auxiliary of the active duty army. The intent is that the militia is supposed to be a domestic force for domestic matters, that can in times of war be called up and used as a standing army to repel invasions. They are supposed to have a monopoly on the use of force by the government in all domestic matters.

Don't you think it's curious that we rely on the guard for other, non military domestic affairs, like disaster relief, but not for the very things that the constitution prescribes? It's not a matter of the guard not having a capability, or not being able to develop that capability, it's a matter of the federal government wanting its own door kickers who aren't your neighbors, and who aren't beholden to local and state commanders.

The reason the founders gave the militia a monopoly on the use of government force was so that the federal government couldn't run roughshod over the states. Take for example the states that have neutralized the NFA without effect, because they can't stop federal police from conducting unconstitutional raids on state soil. That is exactly the kind of thing that this system was there to prevent. It was also intended to distribute force, such that the only people authorized to order its use were by definition your local leaders. In effect, your friends and neighbors. The people you sit next to in church, the people your kids play little league with, etc. The governors and local militia commanders had to live and eat in the same locales where they were going to be ordering any triggers pulled, so they had to walk a very straight and narrow path. Now the orders are given from on high, by people in the federal government, who have zero accountability on a local level. And the triggers are pulled by largely anonymous people from all over the country, who can simply go into hiding after the fact, like the notorious Horiuchi. They can come in and do the fed's dirty work, and then just walk away. Vs. the original militia, who would have had to look those people in the eye when they went to church every Sunday.

[BoringGuy45]

I never said they were trained for military operations. In terms of paramilitary operations, though, they're streamlined and top notch. They're the culmination of all the fears of our founders. An army of soldiers meant not for repelling invasions, but for policing the people themselves.

Don't kid yourself either when it comes to their lack of direct military capabilities. Wherever their paramilitary capabilities come up short, they're now heavily integrated into the actual military. So if they ever get to the point where they need mortars and airstrikes, they can simply attach whatever national guard resources that they need.

Other than the few full time units, these teams aren't "streamlined and top notch". I've worked with feds before. The part time guys are doing collateral duty for high risk warrants, and not much more than that. A lot of them are also just security responses teams for government property. Don't give the federal government too much credit for the ability to cooperate and organize; also the NG is largely a reserve force and mostly consists of non-combat units.

[okie]

Other than the few full time units, these teams aren't "streamlined and top notch". I've worked with feds before. The part time guys are doing collateral duty for high risk warrants, and not much more than that. A lot of them are also just security responses teams for government property. Don't give the federal government too much credit for the ability to cooperate and organize; also the NG is largely a reserve force and mostly consists of non-combat units.

You're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying they're delta force. I'm saying their equipment and tactics are streamlined for paramilitary operations, and they are quite good at it. And getting better all the time.

[BoringGuy45]

You're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying they're delta force. I'm saying their equipment and tactics are streamlined for paramilitary operations, and they are quite good at it. And getting better all the time.

FBI HRT pretty much is as close to Delta Force you can get: Their selection course and operator training program is nearly identical, save for the fact that HRT's course is modified to conform to domestic law enforcement rather than military operations. But other than HRT and the other ones I mentioned, the other units are not really streamlined for paramilitary operations and they aren't really any better at it than state and local PD SWAT units. I'd actually take a full time local unit like LAPD SWAT over a part time federal unit. Most SWAT units aren't trained for counterterrorism; they're trained for high risk arrests of one or a small number of potentially dangerous suspects.

[okie]

FBI HRT pretty much is as close to Delta Force you can get: Their selection course and operator training program is nearly identical, save for the fact that HRT's course is modified to conform to domestic law enforcement rather than military operations. But other than HRT and the other ones I mentioned, the other units are not really streamlined for paramilitary operations and they aren't really any better at it than state and local PD SWAT units. I'd actually take a full time local unit like LAPD SWAT over a part time federal unit. Most SWAT units aren't trained for counterterrorism; they're trained for high risk arrests of one or a small number of potentially dangerous suspects.

You seem to think that paramilitary is synonymous with "high speed tier one." All it means is that they're illegitimate trigger pullers operating in a capacity they're not legally authorized for, in the guise of something else. In the case of the US, they're operating under the guise of law enforcement, but doing the job that is specifically assigned to the militia by the constitution.

Article 1, section 8:

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Notice that law enforcement is NUMBER ONE on the militia's list of duties. And repelling invasions is last. Like I said before, they are first and foremost a domestic organization that can, in extreme circumstances, be transformed into a standing army, temporarily, to put down insurrections or repel invasions.

The way this is supposed to work is the local militia is supposed to be the enforcement arm of the justice department. The way it's supposed to work is someone would make a formal complaint to a magistrate, regarding some illegal behavior. This could be a paid officer of the court, like a local prosecutor, or a citizen. The magistrate would hear the evidence and issue a warrant. If the individual named in the warrant refuses to come peacefully, the local militia would be called out to do whatever was necessary.

BUT, with many checks against the federal government. Because the militia is first and foremost at the command of the governor, and the individual officers, all of whom are state officers. So, for example, a federal judge could order a warrant, but it would be meaningless if the local militia refused to serve it.

It's a beautiful system, because ultimately it forces the actual door kickers to be the local peers of the individual whose door they're kicking in. The guy who actually gives the order might be your kid's little league coach, and the guys coming through the door might actually be friends and coworkers. So they're not even going to think about serving a warrant that they don't believe in, because they will be held accountable by their own communities.

There simply were not supposed to be professional door kickers, period. The actual force was supposed to be distributed amongst the people themselves, such that everyone from farmer to teacher might end up being the one responsible for making those life and death decisions. Therefore, only laws that were in the interest of the people would be enforced. Such as apprehending murderers. Laws that the people had no interest in, they would have no stomach for enforcing. It's quite simple really. Would you, as an unpaid volunteer, shoot your neighbor in the face because he had an unregistered silencer or some whacky tobaccy growing in his basement? Of course you wouldn't. Nobody would. And more importantly, nobody would even bother asking you to in the first place, and such laws would never be passed, because they could never be enforced. Tyranny requires highly centralized enforcement. Our founders understood that perfectly, and devised the perfect system to counter it.

[BoringGuy45]

You seem to think that paramilitary is synonymous with "high speed tier one." All it means is that they're illegitimate trigger pullers operating in a capacity they're not legally authorized for, in the guise of something else. In the case of the US, they're operating under the guise of law enforcement, but doing the job that is specifically assigned to the militia by the constitution.

Article 1, section 8:



Notice that law enforcement is NUMBER ONE on the militia's list of duties. And repelling invasions is last. Like I said before, they are first and foremost a domestic organization that can, in extreme circumstances, be transformed into a standing army, temporarily, to put down insurrections or repel invasions.

The way this is supposed to work is the local militia is supposed to be the enforcement arm of the justice department. The way it's supposed to work is someone would make a formal complaint to a magistrate, regarding some illegal behavior. This could be a paid officer of the court, like a local prosecutor, or a citizen. The magistrate would hear the evidence and issue a warrant. If the individual named in the warrant refuses to come peacefully, the local militia would be called out to do whatever was necessary.

BUT, with many checks against the federal government. Because the militia is first and foremost at the command of the governor, and the individual officers, all of whom are state officers. So, for example, a federal judge could order a warrant, but it would be meaningless if the local militia refused to serve it.

It's a beautiful system, because ultimately it forces the actual door kickers to be the local peers of the individual whose door they're kicking in. The guy who actually gives the order might be your kid's little league coach, and the guys coming through the door might actually be friends and coworkers. So they're not even going to think about serving a warrant that they don't believe in, because they will be held accountable by their own communities.

There simply were not supposed to be professional door kickers, period. The actual force was supposed to be distributed amongst the people themselves, such that everyone from farmer to teacher might end up being the one responsible for making those life and death decisions. Therefore, only laws that were in the interest of the people would be enforced. Such as apprehending murderers. Laws that the people had no interest in, they would have no stomach for enforcing. It's quite simple really. Would you, as an unpaid volunteer, shoot your neighbor in the face because he had an unregistered silencer or some whacky tobaccy growing in his basement? Of course you wouldn't. Nobody would. And more importantly, nobody would even bother asking you to in the first place, and such laws would never be passed, because they could never be enforced. Tyranny requires highly centralized enforcement. Our founders understood that perfectly, and devised the perfect system to counter it.

Well, right now most of the tyranny is coming from local and state governments, so really there's no perfect system. The Founding Fathers didn't agree on whether the US should be more federal or confederate as both local and central governments can be oppressive. Our system of government is designed with checks and balances in mind: Government doesn't have absolute control of the people, the people aren't ungoverned, the federal government keeps the states in check, the states keep the feds in check.

Also, sheriffs offices have existed pretty much since the founding of the country, as has the US Marshals Service. There's also always been a standing federal military, though it was obviously quite small in the early days of the US. So the idea that volunteer citizen militias are the only legal and constitutionally legitimate form of law enforcement and military isn't true. Perhaps that's how it worked in the early days of the country when that was all there was available, but there's nothing in the constitution that prohibits full time police forces from being formed.

[okie]

Well, right now most of the tyranny is coming from local and state governments, so really there's no perfect system. The Founding Fathers didn't agree on whether the US should be more federal or confederate as both local and central governments can be oppressive. Our system of government is designed with checks and balances in mind: Government doesn't have absolute control of the people, the people aren't ungoverned, the federal government keeps the states in check, the states keep the feds in check.

Also, sheriffs offices have existed pretty much since the founding of the country, as has the US Marshals Service. There's also always been a standing federal military, though it was obviously quite small in the early days of the US. So the idea that volunteer citizen militias are the only legal and constitutionally legitimate form of law enforcement and military isn't true. Perhaps that's how it worked in the early days of the country when that was all there was available, but there's nothing in the constitution that prohibits full time police forces from being formed.

Just because something has been around for a long time doesn't mean it's constitutional. Take for example reserve banks. Totally unconstitutional, and yet we got our first reserve bank almost right away.

Sheriffs also served in a pretty different capacity back then than they do today, and were local, not federal, so not really applicable to this topic. They were basically jailers and errand boys for the courts, which is still their primary capacity to this day. If doors needed to be kicked, they still relied on the local townspeople in the form of posses. A sheriff had zero paramilitary resources at his disposal back then. That's actually been very recent.

There will always be shades of gray, but the constitution is pretty clear. Executing laws is the militia's domain, and the federal government is prohibited from having its own armed forces except for finite periods during a time of declared war.

[jpmuscle]

Errybody wanna LARP sadly.

Your tax dollars are appreciated to be certain.


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[Firefly]

How about just be a solid officer with a good command of the law and jurisprudence amongst other solid officers and we can forget this Jethro Gibbs Fck fantasy of being “practically HRT”?

Most of this is ego or playing army. Real police just wanna put people in jail.

What they think they look like:



What they actually look like:



What real police who close shit do:



Not enough prisons to play John Wayne...

[ABNAK]

FBI HRT pretty much is as close to Delta Force you can get: Their selection course and operator training program is nearly identical, save for the fact that HRT's course is modified to conform to domestic law enforcement rather than military operations. But other than HRT and the other ones I mentioned, the other units are not really streamlined for paramilitary operations and they aren't really any better at it than state and local PD SWAT units. I'd actually take a full time local unit like LAPD SWAT over a part time federal unit. Most SWAT units aren't trained for counterterrorism; they're trained for high risk arrests of one or a small number of potentially dangerous suspects.

HRT is ostensibly the Federal LEO counterpart to Delta/CAG. From what I've read the capabilities are quite similar. Really tough to make it into also. That said, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that what a CAG operator candidate goes through at Camp Dawson for selection probably edges out HRT in the "suck" category. Maybe not a night-and-day difference, but a certain amount more grueling. Like in the "How bad do you want to be here" category.