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Thread: PDW Comparison

  1. #1
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    PDW Comparison

    I am curious in a pro/con, or compare and contrast list, with the main contenders being a suppressed Q Honey Badger SBR or suppressed Sig MCX SBR vs. a PCC like a suppressed CZ Scorpion Micro or suppressed Brügger & Thomet APC9K.

    I’m looking at this as not so much an offensive weapon, but as a defensive/PDW style weapon to be used against, as an example with what’s going on around the country, rioters blocking a roadway and trying to yank you and yours from the safety of your vehicle.

    I started thinking about this after reading a thread about PCCs and a post by Yoni mentioning small weapons like an Uzi being easier to hide, more low-vis, better retention, etc.

    I know there are quite a few posts on this subject... but I figured a consolidated thread with all of the pros and cons for one vs. the other could be a good thing for those interested.

    I know this post is somewhat broad or vague, but I felt leaving it that way would encourage folks to discuss their own ideas of a PDW and it’s use(s) or capabilities and then we could go from there. I just hope there is enough information and context for that to happen.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    The 300blk will be more versatile than the 9mm options you posted but they will tend to be a little larger.

    Personally I have a Sig Rattler that has been great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by call_me_ski View Post
    The 300blk will be more versatile than the 9mm options you posted but they will tend to be a little larger.

    Personally I have a Sig Rattler that has been great.
    I do agree with your first statement. I know a 300 BLK will be more versatile and more capable, but the ease of concealment in a pack or bag is a big plus with regard to the APC. That’s one of the biggest reasons I find the PCC option more attractive at this time—the size and concealability (talking specifically about the APC9K). Not to mention the fact that it would seem to be more convenient. I know convenience is secondary, but as a civilian it is still very much something to consider.

    I also like the fact, however small the need may be in actually needing this capability as a civilian with rule of law still in play, that the APC has the ability to be slung over the shoulder and hidden via cover garments like a jacket or coat. Especially in cooler months of the year.

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    There only downside is ammo cost. Before the pandemic cheap blackout was still more than double the cost of cheap 9mm.

    The Rattler or the Maxim defense PDWs are pretty freaking tiny.

    For a little more oomph there's the 6.75" MCX barrel.


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    I've thought about this a lot. I live in a state where I can't have a loaded sbr in the car so a braced pistol is a better choice. We have also had some pretty big protests. While they have been largely peaceful, that can change in a hurry. I drive a Ram 1500 with a giant center console and a big storage unit under the seat. I live in an urban/suburban area.

    I have a bunch of time on most of these systems (although not as much on the Rattler). My thoughts are: I want a significant something in the center console for the "not getting dragged out of my truck by a mob" scenario. I also want a more significant system for when I have to get out of the car and go. Both need to be small, reliable, in a duty caliber. For me, in this role, suppression is not critical: 1) I don't want to leave suppressors in the truck, and 2) in the "not going to get dragged from my truck" scenario, a loud gun might actually be better at encouraging folks to leave me alone. I have an APC pro in 9mm but is is too big to be easily wielded in the truck when coming out of the console. I also have a B&T TPD with a brace and a suppressor. It is far more wieldable than the APC Pro. It is super cool and the can is awesome. It has been my console gun and I am massively invested in the TPD (suppressors, mags) or I don't think I'd keep it - because B&T came out with a Glock Chassis.

    My "out of box" recommendation: a B&T Chassis with a Glock 17 in it. Add a brace and an RMR/Aimpoint/508T and you are ready to proceed. My Glock 17 Gen 5 in a chassis is a 100 yard gun, all day long. It does everything a much bigger system does, but smaller, lighter, and concealable. The APC Pro is under the back seat. I have run with this system for a long time. It works great. Same mags. Swiss quality. The G17 with the 24 round mag is great and it can be fired as a handgun with the stock folded.

    My "way out of the box" recommendation: A B&T chassis with a Glock 40 in it, and a B&T APC 10mm in the back seat. You get all the same advantages of compactness and reliability as you do with 9mm but with a much more capable round. I have the Glock 40 loaded with 180 grain Fenix gold dots and the APC is full of Underwood penetrators that do about 1800 FPS. So I have ability to defeat auto bodies (hell with underwood 220 grain i could shoot through a coke machine) and can deliver accurate fire to150 yards with either system.

    So for 500 bucks you get a swiss made metal chassis with a stock that can be easily converted to a compact tailhook. you get a pic rail optic mount that doesn't mount to the slide. You get the ability to shoot your irons, and the ability to mount a light/laser under the barrel. You get mag commonality between it and the APC Pro variants. Oh and its a Glock... so it will work.
    Damien

    If a large number of people are willing to kill you for saying something, then it probably really needs to be said. .

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    Unless something has changed in terms of the ammunition available in 300 BLK in the last two years (and I don’t think it has), I think the 300 BLK is a no-go: Ammunition either woefully underperforms or overpenetrates so badly that you might as well be using a 300 Win Mag. And given that there maybe people in a crowd who likely don’t need to be shot, overpenetration in a crowd is a Bad Thing. The bullets that underpenetrate also tend to do horribly at defeating automotive bodies - which is a concern if you need to shoot out of your vehicle.

    I would either get a big 9mm pistol and run known well-performing defense loads (Gold Dots, HSTs) out of it OR dig into dedicated (very) short barrel 5.56 loads for a big 5.56 pistol as small as you dare run OR get something like an 8” barrel 7.62x39mm Bren 2 or Galil ACE and run Hornady SSTs (or similar).

    ETA: If you’re going to can it, I’d lean toward 147-gr HSTs or Gold Dots out of a big 9mm pistol. The 9mm might be the better option if you’re transporting family or children and are concerned about their hearing, even if you aren’t going to can it (which will make the gun shorter and easier to conceal). Just remember: Driver drives.
    Last edited by MountainRaven; 10-20-20 at 15:37.

  7. #7
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    I have more than a couple times had the BT UsW Glock chassis in a cart but didn’t send it through. I will likely pick one up after the election.

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    The B&T USW is an interesting concept and I think the USWA1 is pretty practical. However I don't think the add on systems for SIGs, Glocks, etc. is quite there yet. Might as well get that CAA doodad add on for a Glock.

    But when they day comes that they can incorporate the USW design into Glocks and SIGs like they did with the CZ based Sphinx pistol, then you will have something. Right now my smallest PDW (not counting my VZ-61 Skorpion) it a B&T TP9 SBR. It's a tad expensive but it actually works and you don't have to solve reciprocating slide problems.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    The B&T USW is an interesting concept and I think the USWA1 is pretty practical. However I don't think the add on systems for SIGs, Glocks, etc. is quite there yet. Might as well get that CAA doodad add on for a Glock.

    But when they day comes that they can incorporate the USW design into Glocks and SIGs like they did with the CZ based Sphinx pistol, then you will have something. Right now my smallest PDW (not counting my VZ-61 Skorpion) it a B&T TP9 SBR. It's a tad expensive but it actually works and you don't have to solve reciprocating slide problems.
    I will endorse this reasoning on the PDW topic.
    My hang up on the chassis Glocks and certainly on the P320s was the lack of a manual safety. The DA/SA of the USWA1 addresses that trigger issue adequately. Add in a polymer trigger guard cover and the issue is seriously mitigated.

    Additionally, there is a special value to magazine located in the pistol grip. I tried traditional mag forward platforms but have found the mag in grip solutions bring better balance, good retention and easier reloading.
    YMMV.

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    I’m not sure what to think about the Glock chassis systems. Admittedly, I have zero experience on one. I’ve got some acquaintances who swear by the Roni/Micro-Roni chassis, but they are not someone that I would necessarily pay much attention to when it comes to their training or philosophies. I don’t want to say they are fudds but you know what I mean..

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