US Army looking at squad size

[Slater]

Was World War II's 12 man squad size due to the weapons used at that time or from combat experience?:

"With the Next Generation Squad Weapon (NGSW) program underway, the US army is considering changes in squad size. Working with the basic assumption that introducing new weapons might mean a change in optimal squad organization, the Army’s Maneuver Battle Lab recently revealed that they have commenced a study tackling the issue. While it is uncertain if any change will result from the study, the army had already indicated that the size of the squad will not fall below 9 men."


https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...d-size-change/

[SeriousStudent]

I was always a fan of the 13-man squad we used in the Marines.

I have a buddy who teaches at the Army Command and General Staff College. I'll ping him on this regarding his thoughts.

[RHINOWSO]

It will likely be fine for pretend games with the Generals and better for the 'bottom line' (I.e $$$, fewer soldiers, fewer DoD retirements, etc), but once 2-3 dudes are out of the fight on a 2-way range, I bet it won't be very popular.

Much like the 'optimal manning' on some Navy ships, that works just fine until they have some sort of equipment failure, damage to the ship / flooding / fire / etc and all those fancy dodads and such can't run pump lines or fight fires and the 1/2 sized crew is already exhausted at doing 'more with less'...

Or maybe I'm just pessimistic????

[ABNAK]

Be honest, how many Infantry squads were running at full strength when you guys were in? I was in mortars, and each gun crew was a "squad", so considerably smaller than a rifle squad. Nonetheless, even in a peacetime Army we NEVER had "full" squads......each full gun crew was slotted for an E-5, a gunner, an assistant gunner, and TWO ammo bearers. We never had two ammo bearers.

[turnburglar]

I think they need to take weaponry into consideration, but they also need to put movement front and center. Squads need to be tailored around the vehicles they should be operating in.

When I was in we had each truck make a fire team, and 4 fire teams make a squad. This was with MRAPS and MATV's. Seeing as the new JLTV looks similar to a MATV, thats: driver, commander, gunner, and two passengers. If the gunner is CROW's that one less passenger. Now they need to consider the TTP's of when dismounted, do gunners and drivers stay with the vehicles or do they dismount too? A lot too consider.

[RamadiDoorkicker]

I am by no means an expert on infantry tactics history but did spend a decent portion of my life in a variety of infantry squads within the 101st Airborne. The WW2 squad size was based on firepower. There were 3 automatic riflemen, a few regular riflemen, and a couple scouts in each squad. From what I have read over the years, they were very bulky and hard to manage. With the major increase in individual weapons capability of the soldiers, the benefits of a large squad did not outweigh the drawbacks.

The issue with the 9 man seems to be manpower. To me it feels like the washington bureaucrats making an issue of something that is not an issue. We need to continue to outfit and train our soldiers. Give them the best tech available and let the NCO's and Jnr Officers run their teams. Which is pretty much 100% of my experience. I was typically with a platoon size element managing an area or sector on our own with an occasional rotation back to the company area to rest and refit. The Fire Team design worked perfectly. PL's delegate to SL's who delegate to TL's who execute....Don't mess with what isn't broken.

Aside from the number of soldiers in a squad, the pictgram showing the squad staffing of a TL, Grenadier, SAW, and Rifleman is 100% not standard. The armament changes based on mission set. The days of a soldier only having one primary weapon in his toolbox are becoming obsolete. At least in the units that I was in.

[RamadiDoorkicker]

I think they need to take weaponry into consideration, but they also need to put movement front and center. Squads need to be tailored around the vehicles they should be operating in.

When I was in we had each truck make a fire team, and 4 fire teams make a squad. This was with MRAPS and MATV's. Seeing as the new JLTV looks similar to a MATV, thats: driver, commander, gunner, and two passengers. If the gunner is CROW's that one less passenger. Now they need to consider the TTP's of when dismounted, do gunners and drivers stay with the vehicles or do they dismount too? A lot too consider.

This is a really good point. It somewhat happens now when performing traditional roles. For Example, Dco (Heavy Weapons) is 100% mounted now and operates under "Sections" rather than "Squads". Each Section being a pair of gun trucks with a 3-4 man team mounted. (This may be/have changed with the advancements in vehicles since the late 2000's. However, it was not uncommon for Line Platoons to be mounted when terrain required it.

[Wake27]

I think they need to take weaponry into consideration, but they also need to put movement front and center. Squads need to be tailored around the vehicles they should be operating in.

When I was in we had each truck make a fire team, and 4 fire teams make a squad. This was with MRAPS and MATV's. Seeing as the new JLTV looks similar to a MATV, thats: driver, commander, gunner, and two passengers. If the gunner is CROW's that one less passenger. Now they need to consider the TTP's of when dismounted, do gunners and drivers stay with the vehicles or do they dismount too? A lot too consider.

Our JLTVs have turrets just like HMMWVs.


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[Grand58742]

I was always a fan of the 13-man squad we used in the Marines.

I have a buddy who teaches at the Army Command and General Staff College. I'll ping him on this regarding his thoughts.

We had a similar setup in the USAF when we were in the field. Three 4 man fire teams and a SL.

I never understood the odd number though. The .mil always taught teamwork, but then goes and leaves one person out (the squad leader) by their lonesome. One might think they would have added one more just to keep in line with the "battle buddy" concept.

[1168]

We had a similar setup in the USAF when we were in the field. Three 4 man fire teams and a SL.

I never understood the odd number though. The .mil always taught teamwork, but then goes and leaves one person out (the squad leader) by their lonesome. One might think they would have added one more just to keep in line with the "battle buddy" concept.

Buddy is a 240 gunner