Educate me regarding sealed suppressors

[Bret]

In another thread, rushca01 mentioned his SWR Trident 9 that had been "jailbroken" by ECO machine. I only have two suppressors, a AAC TiRant 9 and a Bowers Bitty, so I really don't know much about suppressors. It seems to me that you'd want to clean a suppressor every once in a while because they get dirty. Why would a manufacturer design a suppressor that can't be cleaned? Does it have to do with performance, manufacturing ease or something else? If you want a suppressor that can be cleaned, why buy one that would have to be modified by someone else in order to allow you to clean it? Is it a didn't realize it couldn't be cleaned kind of thing, is the suppressor just that good, or is it something else? I do know that my TiRant 9 was a major pain in the rear to clean. I literally had to pound it apart using a wooden dowel. I've never cleaned the Bitty because the instruction included with it recommended against it.

[rushca01]

Hopefully I can help answer a couple questions.

ECO machine is FB, he has a huge back log, message him and it will put you in the que.
Back in the day two schools of thoughts regarding pistol suppressors especially were A) they didn’t need to be cleaned B) Didn’t want people to have the ability to open them up to keep their trade secrets. The suppressor game has CHANGED a ton in the last decade. Most legacy sealed cans can be opened up to allow the end use to clean the lead and gunk off the baffles. In addition to pistol suppressors rifle suppressors can be modified now to except the industry standard 1.375 x 24 mount. I had my AAC 7.62 SD modified, ECo cut the old 51T mount out, made a sleeve and then tig welded that into the can to except the “universal” 1.375 x 24 mounts. This allows me to use Silencerco mounts, Griffin Mounts, Dead Air keymo/Xeno mounts, and Q mounts.

Check out his FB page for more info.

[lonestardiver]

Most centerfire suppressors don’t require much cleaning other than soot. Those cartridges burn hot enough most everything else is burnt up. Now suppressors for rimfire cartridges are different. There is lots of exposed lead and rimfire rounds are just plain dirty. For those you need the ability to take apart and clean.

For those reasons I won’t shoot rimfire in any sealed centerfire can. Now any can that can be disassembled, you should do so on a regular basis and use clp or some lube on threads or parts to keep them from seizing due to carbon and lead deposits.

[rushca01]

Most centerfire suppressors don’t require much cleaning other than soot. Those cartridges burn hot enough most everything else is burnt up. Now suppressors for rimfire cartridges are different. There is lots of exposed lead and rimfire rounds are just plain dirty. For those you need the ability to take apart and clean.

For those reasons I won’t shoot rimfire in any sealed centerfire can. Now any can that can be disassembled, you should do so on a regular basis and use clp or some lube on threads or parts to keep them from seizing due to carbon and lead deposits.

Right, 90% of rifle cans are all still sealed. My AAC is still sealed, ECO just changed the mount out from the crappy 51T. My SWR Trident 9 is a 9mm pistol can that came from SWR sealed...he unsealed it and I can easily push the stack out to clean now.

[paco ramirez]

Most centerfire suppressors don’t require much cleaning other than soot. Those cartridges burn hot enough most everything else is burnt up. Now suppressors for rimfire cartridges are different. There is lots of exposed lead and rimfire rounds are just plain dirty. For those you need the ability to take apart and clean.

For those reasons I won’t shoot rimfire in any sealed centerfire can. Now any can that can be disassembled, you should do so on a regular basis and use clp or some lube on threads or parts to keep them from seizing due to carbon and lead deposits.

The part bolded is a silencer myth and is completely untrue. Rifle silencers get fouled up just like any other silencer with copper, carbon, and lead. It takes as little as 1000rds to add 1oz of fouling to a rifle silencer. Best practice is to weigh the silencer before use with a precision kitchen scale, then record the base weight in a log book. Every 1000-3000rds after that record the weight again, and once it's gain 1-2oz it's time to clean it.

Here's what I wrote before:

There is more than enough actual physical evidence from a multitude of manufacturers that actually know what they're talking about that proves the rifle silencers being "self cleaning" claim to be complete BS. Rifle silencers are sealed specifically because they're lighter, stronger, straighter, and often times have more consistent accuracy. But just because something is sealed doesn't mean it can't be cleaned.

Rifle silencer do not “self clean”. They get fouled with copper, carbon, lead, etc just like every other silencer. Not having to clean rifle silencers is an internet myth that gets repeated over and over even though there is plenty of actual evidence of cutaway rifle silencers from multiple manufacturers that proves rifle silencers need to be cleaned and don’t “self clean”. It takes as little as 1000rds to add 1oz of fouling weight to a rifle silencer and the more it’s allowed to build up the harder it’ll be to clean down the road.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/P...501796/?page=1

The pictures aren't showing anymore though.

Here's an uncoated Hyperion after 12,800rds of 260 Remington on an 18" semiauto host: https://www.instagram.com/p/B0b0DBVgDqB/

And the Wedgetail after over 12,000rds of 308: https://www.instagram.com/p/B0e7HiPAppD/ and https://www.instagram.com/p/B0e78IRA1lR/

Pro Tip: Simple math on 12,000rds should tell people that 10% of that fouling took only 1,200rds, and that should tell people that the silencer should’ve been cleaned out around the 1000rd mark, or once the silencer gained ~1oz of weight. 1000rds isn’t a lot for anyone except those that very rarely shoot.

https://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-5-cm.6960879/

It doesn't take many rounds past what you'd clean your handgun silencers to achieve notable build up in a rifle silencer, and there are ways to clean sealed silencers. It's not just me that's right, it's also Ase Utra, Thunderbeast, Wedgetail Industries, and I'm sure there are plenty more that test their stuff like that.

http://www.aseutra.fi/assets/images/...500_rounds.jpg

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...formation-post

https://forum.snipershide.com/thread...-5-cm.6960879/

It used to be that people said you didn't need to clean rimfire silencers and that was wrong. Now people make disassemblable serviceable rimfire silencers. It used to be that people said you didn't need to clean handgun silencers and that was wrong too. Now people are also making disassemblable serviceable handgun silencers. Usually it takes 1-3000 or so rounds to see moderate build up by weight in a rifle silencer, it just takes a bit longer than a rimfire or handgun in some instances. We and many other manufacturers have done tests of not cleaning rifle silencers and putting thousands of rounds through them and then cutting them in half to see the build up and distribution of particulates. There's plenty of pictures online of it too. It's always best to do what the manufacturer says, but even if the manufacturer tells you it doesn't need to be cleaned and your silencer is getting gradually heavier from build up, they're wrong. However, some 300 Blackout subs will burn pretty cleanly depending on what you're shooting. That's why it's best practice to check on build up yourself by weighing the silencer. It will vary depending on barrel length, cartridge, and ammo.

[SteyrAUG]

Closed cans are usually about pressure rating on full auto and such. But you can still clean most of them with immersion methods. Only can I'd want to be able to pull apart would be like a .22 can.

[utahjeepr]

Closed cans are usually about pressure rating on full auto and such. But you can still clean most of them with immersion methods. Only can I'd want to be able to pull apart would be like a .22 can.

The pressure thing is my understanding. I've been told a serviceable rifle can would need to be constructed more robustly to hold up, making it heavy.

In for education.

[Aries144]

The pressure thing is my understanding. I've been told a serviceable rifle can would need to be constructed more robustly to hold up, making it heavy.

In for education.

This. It's all about weight and durability for rifle cans.

The only good way to clean a sealed suppressor that I know of is using "The Dip." It will dissolve the lead and help break apart the gunk caked inside the suppressor. THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS. It creates TOXIC VAPORS and LEAD ACETATE which is READILY ABSORBED THROUGH THE SKIN. It MUST be done with PPE, OUTDOORS, away from anyone or any thing that can't understand the danger, and the liquid is thereafter highly toxic and must either A. be disposed of at a hazardous waste facility or B. have the lead 'crashed out' by someone who knows what they're doing.

I wouldn't mess with it unless you're confident with chemistry and PPE use or your DGAF meter has reached the "I could spare a couple dozen IQ points, am tired of thinking about concepts more complex than basic impulses, and don't mind constant headaches for the rest of my life" line.

[SteyrAUG]

The pressure thing is my understanding. I've been told a serviceable rifle can would need to be constructed more robustly to hold up, making it heavy.

In for education.

It doesn't necessarily have to be heavy, they make a lot of titanium cans now.

But a 5.56 or 7.62 on burst puts out a very powerful pressure bubble that will easily strip threads and launch suppressor end caps a hundred yards. I've seen a lot of old school STEEL cans blow their welds if you burp a gun fast enough and often enough with rifle caliber pressures.

Basically anything that can be secured by hand can be blown out by sustained rifle pressures. This is why it is mostly .22 and handgun caliber cans that can be broken down but those 9mm and 45 cans typically aren't rated for full auto.

That is what it really comes down to. And if the mount isn't solid, it will fail at the mount and I've seen a couple suppressors launched down range because they weren't mounted properly or the mount was junk and then finally if the host weapon really isn't meant for full auto putting a suppressor on it will pretty much guarantee that it will beat itself to death.

A lot of otherwise perfectly fine 1911s had their lives dramatically shorted by a suppressor. That additional back pressure will absolutely slam them to death. This is why the Mark 23 concept wasn't built around a 1911 design.

So with a suppressor you are basically containing pressure and it is going to travel the path of least resistance. If the can is a joke it's going to blow up like a balloon or grenade. If the mount is a joke, it's going to lauch the can like those old water pressure rockets we used to play with and if the host firearm is a joke it's gonna run the bolt or slide at mach III and bottom out on whatever end of travel features the firearm incorporates.

Only a few designs such as the Ultimax or Knights belt feds never have this problem.

[okie]

Having now built several form 1 cans, I no longer see any advantage to welding, other than to perhaps lower costs and keep trade secrets. Regarding the trade secrets, though, I don't see much of that going on. The physics are pretty well understood, so there's not much happening in the suppressor market that could be described as revolutionary.

One thing to consider is that 24 tpi is a very strong connection, and it's more or less foolproof. Whereas welding is only as good as the machine and person doing it, and even then can have mixed results. The only logic I see in a welded can is if it's 3d printed by necessity, because the design won't allow it to be made any other way. Unfortunately, if you open up 3d printed cans there's nothing revolutionary going on inside of them. At this point, it seems like an answer to a question no one asked.

Another big advantage of threaded cans is that you can have a variety of materials. Blast baffle can be inconel, subsequent blast baffles stainless, followed by titanium, all within a titanium tube. Or to lower costs you can simply have all titanium baffles and just replace the blast baffle occasionally. The modularity is worth whatever very slight weight difference there might be, which seems to me to be pretty much nonexistent.

Another reason I really like modular cans is because I can use my 22 conversion then go straight to centerfire without having to switch cans. In other words, one silencer can live permanently on my AR as a fixed muzzle device, and only has to be removed occasionally to clean out the 22 schmoo. Which is rare, because a few rounds of 223 does a pretty good job of cleaning out most of the schmoo all on its own.