JOINT AGENCY BALLISTICS TEST FOR DEFENSIVE HANDGUN AMMUNITION

[Ron3]

This alleged "study" smells of an info-mercial for Underwood ammunition.

Yea, it doesn't pass the smell test. Will disregard.

[okie]

I see way too much BS in the data charts.

According to this "document". I should ditch all my CCW ammo in all my calibers to place it with underwood ammo.

Surely you're not suggesting that the gun industry is plagued by marketing in the guise of unbiased studies.

[yoni]

Are you Israeli special operations?

In my past.

[Ron3]

Surely you're not suggesting that the gun industry is plagued by marketing in the guise of unbiased studies.

Oh yea.

They'd love for everyone to think that 9x19 is the only pistol caliber anyone needs, too.

It costs money having to make those other calibers. ☻

[Stickman]

They have their ways. If you followed the money trail, for example, you might find that an advertising agency put up the funds for the testing.

Plenty of ways to pile 3 card monty.

[dpast32]

I seem to recall that all that long ago, many 'noted' individuals were thought to be whole heartily against the 9x19 as a 'primary' defensive round. But, just a couple of years into the Bureau's all encompassing industry media blitz at attempting to convince us all how their studies showed the 9 to be the exemplar of what an defensive caliber should be, we now appear to be living in an 9mm world.

Sorry Folks, but in my world, a larger diameter projectile impacting the target will always produce more lasting trauma than an smaller sized projectile, given a relatively similar design & impact velocity. The FBI repeatedly stated that 'most' medical examiners, & or autopsy personnel could not, or had great difficulty in determining an 9mm versus a .45 via examination of the primary crush cavity ? Well, that in itself can be misleading, as human tissue being of an elastic nature, will of course revert back to its original size & configuration, except in some specific circumstances. IMHO, for what it's worth, I firmly believe that the the whole 'lets all use & love the 9x19' media campaign was to show cause as to why the change over was initiated, & in the long run, to save money by both reduced ammunition costs, reduced expense in firearms training, subsequently by less weapons maintenance, due to reduced firearms wear. As we all know, what's at the route of a great many ill advised ventures & schemes, 'money' !!

Sorry Guys, but that's my particular take on this whole issue. However, in closing, I will say that the 9mm, loaded with modern projectiles, can in many scenarios be an effective choice, given proper shot placement of course. And yes, the 9mm does rectify some former training issues when dealing with former, non-profit shooting recruits. The question remains though, to whose benefit ? I always believed that when training someone to shoot, within an Law Enforcement scenario, 'good enough', or well, OK, at least you Qualified, simply doesn't cut it in my book. But, a whole new Generation of Law Enforcement Personnel are growing up believing the '9' is THE caliber of choice. Well, for everyone's sake, I sure hope that they don't find out the hard way why so very many people before them were so adamant as to the the larger calibers 'enhanced' capabilitites !!

Best, dpast32

[C-grunt]

Special Operations has dabbled in 45 and 40 and cave back to 9mm. I doubt they were influenced by the FBI switch.

Also, in 14+ years as a street cop I haven't seen the "enhanced capabilities" of the bigger duty calibers. What I have seen is the importance of shot placement and penetration.

[yoni]

I have never seen what the Cooper and Taylor and others told me when I was young. I have seen the opposite and it almost killed me.

I watched a video of a guy shooting the Underwood .357 sigLeigh 65 grain out of a 6" Glock and it was kissing on 2300fps, I admit it intrigues me.

[WillBrink]

I seem to recall that all that long ago, many 'noted' individuals were thought to be whole heartily against the 9x19 as a 'primary' defensive round. But, just a couple of years into the Bureau's all encompassing industry media blitz at attempting to convince us all how their studies showed the 9 to be the exemplar of what an defensive caliber should be, we now appear to be living in an 9mm world.

Sorry Folks, but in my world, a larger diameter projectile impacting the target will always produce more lasting trauma than an smaller sized projectile, given a relatively similar design & impact velocity. The FBI repeatedly stated that 'most' medical examiners, & or autopsy personnel could not, or had great difficulty in determining an 9mm versus a .45 via examination of the primary crush cavity ? Well, that in itself can be misleading, as human tissue being of an elastic nature, will of course revert back to its original size & configuration, except in some specific circumstances. IMHO, for what it's worth, I firmly believe that the the whole 'lets all use & love the 9x19' media campaign was to show cause as to why the change over was initiated, & in the long run, to save money by both reduced ammunition costs, reduced expense in firearms training, subsequently by less weapons maintenance, due to reduced firearms wear. As we all know, what's at the route of a great many ill advised ventures & schemes, 'money' !!

Sorry Guys, but that's my particular take on this whole issue. However, in closing, I will say that the 9mm, loaded with modern projectiles, can in many scenarios be an effective choice, given proper shot placement of course. And yes, the 9mm does rectify some former training issues when dealing with former, non-profit shooting recruits. The question remains though, to whose benefit ? I always believed that when training someone to shoot, within an Law Enforcement scenario, 'good enough', or well, OK, at least you Qualified, simply doesn't cut it in my book. But, a whole new Generation of Law Enforcement Personnel are growing up believing the '9' is THE caliber of choice. Well, for everyone's sake, I sure hope that they don't find out the hard way why so very many people before them were so adamant as to the the larger calibers 'enhanced' capabilitites !!

Best, dpast32

I don't know of anyone viewed as noted/SME on that topic claiming such a thing within the last few decades, if not longer. Any noted person with the creds to claim such a thing you can think of within a decade? It's not that there's no differences, it's more that the differences are so small, and upsided of greater capacity, reduced recoil, etc has the 9mm as the obvious net win. That and the fact all pistols rnds in common duty loads are poor man stoppers and people like Yoni who have shot people with pretty much all of them found the capacity factor was what worked best for goblins. He's written about that multiple times here.

[vicious_cb]

I don't know of anyone viewed as noted/SME on that topic claiming such a thing within the last few decades, if not longer. Any noted person with the creds to claim such a thing you can think of within a decade? It's not that there's no differences, it's more that the differences are so small, and upsided of greater capacity, reduced recoil, etc has the 9mm as the obvious net win. That and the fact all pistols rnds in common duty loads are poor man stoppers and people like Yoni who have shot people with pretty much all of them found the capacity factor was what worked best for goblins. He's written about that multiple times here.

Bingo. No one denies larger calibers make a bigger hole but OIS autopsies show that if you replace a gunshot wound from a 9mm to a .40 or .45 it wouldnt have made a difference. You either hit something important or you dont. 9mm is chosen because its the smallest caliber that will CONSISTENTLY reach the vitals no matter what angle someone gets shot from.

If .380 could consistently reach the heart after passing through a deltoid or outstreched arm I would carry that.