JOINT AGENCY BALLISTICS TEST FOR DEFENSIVE HANDGUN AMMUNITION

[okie]

To steal from your signature: No dude is going to get shot in the chest at 300 yards and look down and say "What is that, a 3 MOA group?"
No dude is going to get shot in the chest with a .32 or .380 and shrug it off because it wasn’t a 9x19 or .45.

Shots on target with adequate penetration end a fight. At some point pistol caliber is an academic exercise and it becomes much more about how well the shooter can rapidly engage and provide follow up shots. The fallacy that someone will get hit with a single .45 and drop (or a 10mm and explode) doesn’t hold a candle to a guy or gal with a .32 who practices regularly. And of course none of it means a thing if people don’t have some sort of situational awareness.

If it doesn't hit something vital they're not even going to realize they've been shot. So yes, given what we know about .32 ballistics, it's very much within the realm of possibility, or even likelihood, that they would be unaffected by it, in terms of their ability to return fire, beat you to death, etc.

I say all this btw as someone who owns a P32, but I only carry it when no other option exists, and I know its limitations. I also carry a good sized pocket knife as backup in such situations, and given the choice between the two, I would choose to forego the P32 in favor of the knife.

[C-grunt]

To steal from your signature: No dude is going to get shot in the chest at 300 yards and look down and say "What is that, a 3 MOA group?"
No dude is going to get shot in the chest with a .32 or .380 and shrug it off because it wasn’t a 9x19 or .45.

The problem is Ive personally seen the smaller rounds not work in actual shootings. Sure a straight on chest shot they will probably penetrate enough but you dont always get good straight on shots.

I remember one shooting at a bar where a guy took a 380 hollow point in the stomach at arms length distance. The victim was a construction worker so he was in fairly okay shape but had a bit of a beer belly. 6 foot tall and around 190 pounds.

the bullet hit him at a slight angle from the front towards the side. The bullet had okay expansion but stopped after penetrating about 6 inches into his love handle. Only went through skin and fat. Er cut open the skin near the bullet, pulled it out, cleaned thr wound, packed it with medical gauze, and he was out of the hospital in a couple hours.

Ive also seen 380 stop inside forearms after either hitting the bone or going in at an odd angle.

I know these things also happen with the duty calibers but Ive never seen it and Ive seen a lot more people shot with the duty calibers than I have with the "mouse guns". The only time I have seen the duty calibers have little penetration is hitting the bigger bones of the arms and legs or the frontal areas of the skull. Even then the bullet tends to shatter those bones.

Examples. A couple coworkers got into a shootout with a chick and one nailed her in the shoulder from a side profile shot. The 230 +P HST 45 hit the upper part of the humerous right were it attaches to the shoulder. It shattered the bone and the bullet ended up on the other side in the arm pit area. Another coworker got shot in the thigh with a 9mm and it shattered her femur causing her to fall down some stairs and causing a compound fracture. She needed multiple surgeries and months of physical therapy. Another case had a tweeker get shot with a 380 FMJ in the arm. Direct center hit through the bicep which direct hits the humerous and stopped. Broke the bone but not seriously and didnt penetrate through the bone. Didnt even require a tourniquet.

[yoni]

I also have see many failures involving the 9mm short.aka 380.

In Israel a lot of older guys carried 380, 32, and 22, because in the 1950's that was what was available.

I will be blunt, if it is possible I will never carry any of those rounds.

To answer the question that was asked 8 rounds of 9mm or I think it 13 rounds of 32.

Give me 8 rounds of 9mm and a big knife. If they are close and I empty the 9 without killing them them I transition to the knife if need be.

[Ron3]

When talking about barrier you gotta remember that body parts can act as barriers too. If a guy is shooting at you, his chest is likely being covered by his arms. So you might have to get a bullet through a wrist, hand, or forearm before you even get it to the chest.

A straight on frontal shot will most likely have enough penetration, but how well is a 73 grain bullet going to do against hand or wrist bones?

Again I cant remember a specific 32 ACP shooting Ive investigated but from my experience the rounds start to get iffy at 380 ACP. From my experience 380 FMJ offers adequate penetration most of the time. But I remember a few distinct instances were even FMJ 380 had less than adequate penetration. Maybe a 32 does better but I wouldn't bet money on it.

Another issue is having to rely on FMJ. Im not one of those people that says FMJ doesnt work because Ive seen a lot of people shot with FMJ in pretty much every caliber and it jacks you up. But hollow points offer benefits besides the bigger wound aspect. FMJ ammo seems to deflect more than hollow points do. Ive read theories that the sharp leading edge will "bite" into surfaces while the rounded edged of a FMJ are more likely to skip off or ride around the object. Ive seen deflection like that with hollow points too but it seems to happen more with FMJ and others have reported the same thing.

This seems accurate to me.

[Ron3]

.32 is just on the very, very edge of the bare minimum horsepower if you get my meaning. It doesn't leave any margin for error. Big dude wearing thick clothes, some light barrier like an interior door or drywall, a hand or arm covering the target, oblique angles, etc. will all pretty much defeat .32 ACP. Even in a straight on, unobstructed gimme scenario, it might fail to penetrate or glance off a rib or something. And that's all in FMJ form. Don't even think about carrying .32 hollow points.

The thing to keep in mind is that people don't just stand there and let you shoot them, and human bodies aren't made out of ballistic gel. They're muscle and bone, and a whole bunch of sinews and intersecting tissue planes. And when confronted with an armed assailant, they reflexively turn their shoulder towards the threat and cover their vitals with their weak hand while shooting back with the strong hand, which just so happens to also be in front of their heart. And naturally they try to duck behind anything available.

9mm only overpenetrates if you're assuming a target standing square to you with their arms down, and no barriers. If assuming all of the above, it's pretty much the bare minimum of what's required to be reliable in the real world.

You make excellent points.

[Ron3]

I realize most "stops" involving pistol bullets are psychological in nature.

But failing that a bullet that does more penetrating and damage (to put it simply) improves the chance of getting a desirable result.

Equally important is getting rounds on target quickly. I know I can fire 4 to 5 rounds of .32 in the A-zone of my targets compared to 3 or 4 rounds from my Glock 19. (And 8-10 vs 6-8, too)

I'm beginning to think the couple extra rounds may be less desirable than slightly fewer more powerful ones.

I hope I like my new Hellcat. I dont expect it to be as fast a Cheetah or G19. It will probably compare to my M&P 2.0 full size .45 split-time wise.

[Ron3]

Doubltap

[Ron3]

Took my new Hellcat out and fired about 250 rds. About 70 jhp.

No stoppages.

- Last shot hold open only happened half the time. Not sure if it's the two mags I had, the gun, or if I'm pressing on the lever during firing.

- While I can replicate the lock up pressing the trigger blade to the side it's not an issue while firing and fixable with a small file if it was.

- Recoil is sort of Glock 27-like. After 250 rds my thumb web was about done though not bleeding.

- The biggest problem was my trigger finger getting pinched either on the blade or more likely between the trigger tip and guard. I could tell at 50rds it was happening and by 250 it was a blister and I was done anyway.

- The gun shot high. 6-8 inches at 25 yes with 115 gr fmj and jhp's. Otherwise the sights are very nice. I may file down the rear sight some.

- I only had Wolf left for accuracy testing. Freehand standing 10 rds at 25 yds 7.75 in group. I'll try again with a selection of ammo

I ran a bunch of Bill Drills with the new Hellcat, (loaded with common fmj) LCR .327 (loaded with .32 mag) and a Beretta M81FS. (Fiocchi 73 gr)

None of these have a large grip but the Beretta was the easiest to draw.

All from concealment with AIWB holsters. I disengaged the safety on the Hellcat each time. I never forgot it or missed it. I dont think it added to my times at all but I'll test that another time.

Timed, 7 yds, 6 shots, A-zone hits or it didn't count. I did about 10 with each gun.

The Hellcat was slowest at an average of about 3.75 sec. Its jumpy.

The LCR was a 1/4 second faster. (3.5s) The trigger, while excellent, holds it back. I short stroked it once, immediately after I'd been firing Beretta.

The Beretta 81FS average about 2.65 sec. 😁 Pretty damn fast. I never lose the front sight while firing. The time to the first shot (starting in DA decock position) is about the same as the Hellcat but the split times are fast.

The difference between the .32 and 9mm was more than I expected. In 2.65 s I could put 3 shot of 9mm (3 inch ballistics) or 6 shots of .32 (full length ballistics) in the A-zone.

The Beretta was more accurate at 25 yds with a 5.5 inch 10 shot group but again, I only had Wolf ammo left to get the 7.75 inch group in the Hellcat.

I give the Hellcat a B-minus so far.

[Harpoon]

Thanks for posting the info. Looks like Fed HST in 9mm 147gr and 40 180gr are still hard to beat. I'm sticking with them since I stockpiled them years ago.

[Alpha-17]

Wow, that is incredibly interesting. It does confirm some notions I had, but at the same time, surprises me with the success of 5.7. As a Fort Scott native, I'm sad, but in no way surprised, by FSM's lackluster performance.