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Thread: JOINT AGENCY BALLISTICS TEST FOR DEFENSIVE HANDGUN AMMUNITION

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by themonk View Post
    The whole doc smells of BS.
    There's a contact at the end:

    ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

    There are so many agencies and people to credit with the amazing amount of data
    that was measured and calculated in this report. So many new things were
    accomplished and considered like Ballistic Ratio, consulting of medical
    professionals to create the first large scale test using realistic animal tissue as a
    primary media and the testing of all four types of ammunition instead of just hollow
    points.

    People involved in this 2016-17 Joint Agency Ballistics Test For Defensive
    Handgun Ammunition came from the Department of Defense, Department of
    Justice, Marshalls, two Texas State departments, 4 police and Sherriff departments,
    2 security firms, 3 local gun stores and 2 training schools. We had 2 companies that
    sponsored some of the tests by providing supplies and food. One local grocery store
    chain gave great discount on brisket used in Phase 4/5. The tests were accomplished
    at 4 outdoor ranges starting in March of 2016 and finishing in October of 2017.
    Ammunition was provided by multiple sources ranging from the manufacturers to
    gun stores and finally most provided by the agencies involved. No ammunition
    manufacturers were allowed to sponsor or attend any test. They were only allowed
    to provide ammunition and nothing else.


    The people involved were active, retired and by the end some of the active retired!
    Many wished to remain anonymous and it was agreed that two final reports would
    be made. One only for the agencies involved and one for general use that would
    have all specific agencies, individuals and companies information removed, with the
    exception of the company compiling and disseminating the final report. No agency,
    company or individual received any financial or gift compensation of any kind for
    testing or the report.
    A very special thanks to all the volunteers who helped set up,
    tear down, film, photograph, measure, re-measure, document, calculate and check
    all the data. Only through their diligent thorough work could this much accurate
    data be generated.

    The individual test reports were written by many testers, chapters were written and
    reviewed by many and final composition and editing was accomplished by the
    training company that provided continuity of testing and scheduling: Viper Weapons
    Training LLC.

    There are no conclusions in this test. Testing was accomplished only to provide raw
    data on a large scale with an enormous sample size on multiple media with 4
    predetermined quantifiable grading criteria
    . Each agency should first determine
    which characteristics are important to them in order, before using the data for
    ammunition determination or for ballistics training.

    A 2019 test is being scheduled to include newer rounds, more direct competitions of
    rounds by requested agencies and more tissue dissection data. The same protocols
    will be maintained in that test so that comparisons and combined sample sizes may
    be accomplished.

    A power point presentation is available for any agency wishing to have this report
    in that format.

    Any agency wanting more information please make a request to
    viperweaponstraining@gmail.com
    Last edited by WillBrink; 03-24-21 at 08:42.
    - Will

    General Performance/Fitness Advice for all

    www.BrinkZone.com

    LE/Mil specific info:

    https://brinkzone.com/category/swatleomilitary/

    “Those who do not view armed self defense as a basic human right, ignore the mass graves of those who died on their knees at the hands of tyrants.”

  2. #42
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    I've never seen an actual agency or government run test paper that had or needed to put in a disclaimer at the end.

    Does the FBI handgun ballistics report that cans out a few years ago have a bunch of disclaimers at the end?
    Last edited by C-grunt; 03-26-21 at 18:32.
    C co 1/30th Infantry Regiment
    3rd Brigade 3rd Infantry Division
    2002-2006
    OIF 1 and 3

    IraqGunz:
    No dude is going to get shot in the chest at 300 yards and look down and say "What is that, a 3 MOA group?"

  3. #43
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillBrink View Post
    There's a contact at the end:

    ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

    There are so many agencies and people to credit with the amazing amount of data
    that was measured and calculated in this report. So many new things were
    accomplished and considered like Ballistic Ratio, consulting of medical
    professionals to create the first large scale test using realistic animal tissue as a
    primary media and the testing of all four types of ammunition instead of just hollow
    points.

    People involved in this 2016-17 Joint Agency Ballistics Test For Defensive
    Handgun Ammunition came from the Department of Defense, Department of
    Justice, Marshalls, two Texas State departments, 4 police and Sherriff departments,
    2 security firms, 3 local gun stores and 2 training schools. We had 2 companies that
    sponsored some of the tests by providing supplies and food. One local grocery store
    chain gave great discount on brisket used in Phase 4/5. The tests were accomplished
    at 4 outdoor ranges starting in March of 2016 and finishing in October of 2017.
    Ammunition was provided by multiple sources ranging from the manufacturers to
    gun stores and finally most provided by the agencies involved. No ammunition
    manufacturers were allowed to sponsor or attend any test. They were only allowed
    to provide ammunition and nothing else.


    The people involved were active, retired and by the end some of the active retired!
    Many wished to remain anonymous and it was agreed that two final reports would
    be made. One only for the agencies involved and one for general use that would
    have all specific agencies, individuals and companies information removed, with the
    exception of the company compiling and disseminating the final report. No agency,
    company or individual received any financial or gift compensation of any kind for
    testing or the report.
    A very special thanks to all the volunteers who helped set up,
    tear down, film, photograph, measure, re-measure, document, calculate and check
    all the data. Only through their diligent thorough work could this much accurate
    data be generated.

    The individual test reports were written by many testers, chapters were written and
    reviewed by many and final composition and editing was accomplished by the
    training company that provided continuity of testing and scheduling: Viper Weapons
    Training LLC.

    There are no conclusions in this test. Testing was accomplished only to provide raw
    data on a large scale with an enormous sample size on multiple media with 4
    predetermined quantifiable grading criteria
    . Each agency should first determine
    which characteristics are important to them in order, before using the data for
    ammunition determination or for ballistics training.

    A 2019 test is being scheduled to include newer rounds, more direct competitions of
    rounds by requested agencies and more tissue dissection data. The same protocols
    will be maintained in that test so that comparisons and combined sample sizes may
    be accomplished.

    A power point presentation is available for any agency wishing to have this report
    in that format.

    Any agency wanting more information please make a request to
    viperweaponstraining@gmail.com
    They have their ways. If you followed the money trail, for example, you might find that an advertising agency put up the funds for the testing.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by okie View Post
    They have their ways. If you followed the money trail, for example, you might find that an advertising agency put up the funds for the testing.
    No doubt they do. Are you aware of something specific to that report or is that a general statement?
    - Will

    General Performance/Fitness Advice for all

    www.BrinkZone.com

    LE/Mil specific info:

    https://brinkzone.com/category/swatleomilitary/

    “Those who do not view armed self defense as a basic human right, ignore the mass graves of those who died on their knees at the hands of tyrants.”

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillBrink View Post
    No doubt they do. Are you aware of something specific to that report or is that a general statement?
    Just in general. They're talking out both sides of their mouths though so it's pretty obvious you have some folks who know what they're talking about forced to adopt test protocols designed to accommodate someone's corporate interests. Basically you can sum it up thusly, "Measuring gel holes is meaningless in real life, but here are some gel hole measurements anyways, but we're not coming to any conclusions to give this the illusion of credibility (BTW, look at those really big gel holes!)."

  6. #46
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    All you have presented is references to unnamed people and unnamed agencies with questionable boutique ammo. We've seen this all before.

    What you are quoting is a bunch of obfuscation and BS designed to impress naïve, gullible people. Obviously in some cases it worked.



    Quote Originally Posted by WillBrink View Post
    There's a contact at the end:

    ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS

    There are so many agencies and people to credit with the amazing amount of data that was measured and calculated in this report. So many new things were accomplished and considered like Ballistic Ratio, consulting of medical professionals to create the first large scale test using realistic animal tissue as a primary media and the testing of all four types of ammunition instead of just hollow points.

    People involved in this 2016-17 Joint Agency Ballistics Test For Defensive Handgun Ammunition came from the Department of Defense, Department of Justice, Marshalls, two Texas State departments, 4 police and Sherriff departments, 2 security firms, 3 local gun stores and 2 training schools. We had 2 companies that sponsored some of the tests by providing supplies and food. One local grocery store chain gave great discount on brisket used in Phase 4/5. The tests were accomplished at 4 outdoor ranges starting in March of 2016 and finishing in October of 2017.

    Ammunition was provided by multiple sources ranging from the manufacturers to gun stores and finally most provided by the agencies involved. No ammunition manufacturers were allowed to sponsor or attend any test. They were only allowed to provide ammunition and nothing else.

    The people involved were active, retired and by the end some of the active retired! Many wished to remain anonymous and it was agreed that two final reports would be made. One only for the agencies involved and one for general use that would have all specific agencies, individuals and companies information removed, with the exception of the company compiling and disseminating the final report. No agency,
    company or individual received any financial or gift compensation of any kind for testing or the report.
    A very special thanks to all the volunteers who helped set up,
    tear down, film, photograph, measure, re-measure, document, calculate and check all the data. Only through their diligent thorough work could this much accurate
    data be generated.

    The individual test reports were written by many testers, chapters were written and reviewed by many and final composition and editing was accomplished by the training company that provided continuity of testing and scheduling: Viper Weapons Training LLC.

    There are no conclusions in this test. Testing was accomplished only to provide raw data on a large scale with an enormous sample size on multiple media with 4 predetermined quantifiable grading criteria. Each agency should first determine which characteristics are important to them in order, before using the data for ammunition determination or for ballistics training.

    A 2019 test is being scheduled to include newer rounds, more direct competitions of rounds by requested agencies and more tissue dissection data. The same protocols will be maintained in that test so that comparisons and combined sample sizes may be accomplished.

    A power point presentation is available for any agency wishing to have this report in that format.

    Any agency wanting more information please make a request to viperweaponstraining@gmail.com
    Last edited by Ed L.; 03-25-21 at 20:09.

  7. #47
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    The paper says that no actaul government agencies were involved, just people from agencies. So why is there a "classified" version of the report?

    My guess there isn't for two reasons:

    1. Ammo tests of commercially available non military ammo has no reason to be classified

    2. Again, no actual government agency is involved, so who is securing the "classified" copy of the report? The training company?
    C co 1/30th Infantry Regiment
    3rd Brigade 3rd Infantry Division
    2002-2006
    OIF 1 and 3

    IraqGunz:
    No dude is going to get shot in the chest at 300 yards and look down and say "What is that, a 3 MOA group?"

  8. #48
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    Double tap tap
    Last edited by AndyLate; 03-27-21 at 21:29.

  9. #49
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    I just carry a 9mm loaded with bonded 124 Gr +P to save myself the trouble of reading studies.

    Andy

  10. #50
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    I see way too much BS in the data charts.

    According to this "document". I should ditch all my CCW ammo in all my calibers to place it with underwood ammo.

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