JOINT AGENCY BALLISTICS TEST FOR DEFENSIVE HANDGUN AMMUNITION

[okie]

Bingo. No one denies larger calibers make a bigger hole but OIS autopsies show that if you replace a gunshot wound from a 9mm to a .40 or .45 it wouldnt have made a difference. You either hit something important or you dont. 9mm is chosen because its the smallest caliber that will CONSISTENTLY reach the vitals no matter what angle someone gets shot from.

If .380 could consistently reach the heart after passing through a deltoid or outstreched arm I would carry that.

It's basically just the entrance wounds that are different/larger, and that only impacts pathology. It's useful for helping police determine what type of gun was used and that's about it.

[C-grunt]

I seem to recall that all that long ago, many 'noted' individuals were thought to be whole heartily against the 9x19 as a 'primary' defensive round.

Which SMEs were advising against the 9mm?

[yoni]

9mm is well 9mm, 40S&W is 10mm, 45acp is 11.43mm.

So the difference between 9mm and 45 is 2.43mm, now go look how small that is then some back and tell me you think 2,43mm is a game changer.

[T2C]

It's basically just the entrance wounds that are different/larger, and that only impacts pathology. It's useful for helping police determine what type of gun was used and that's about it.

I've attended my share of autopsies and in most cases the skin stretched back enough that the entrance wound shrunk. It was sometimes easier to see difference in entry wound size based on caliber with hollow points, but not always. In most cases the biggest difference in wound size was due to the angle the projectile hit the person not the caliber. All this of course was with wounds that were not inflicted at contact distance.

[WillBrink]

9mm is well 9mm, 40S&W is 10mm, 45acp is 11.43mm.

So the difference between 9mm and 45 is 2.43mm, now go look how small that is then some back and tell me you think 2,43mm is a game changer.

The game changer is being able to dump 15+ of them into the goblin vs 8 to stop all hostilities if required. Who did I hear that from? Oh wait, was you!

[yoni]

Full disclosure, I have been so busy trying to rebuild my body post covid. I lost 1.5" from my biceps, my forearms look like tooth picks and my legs lost so much muscle I have a lot of skin loose. So I have not read the whole thread nor the "study".

Here are my thoughts, when dealing with short M16's, it was clear that as the round lost velocity due to distance the ability of the round dropped off a lot. Up close they could still do damage, in some cases substantial in others not so much. Which is the issue with ALL bullets, they don't work the same all the time.

I remember two shots that hit in about the same place on two different guys, that were about the same size and same physical condition. They were both shot about 3" below the elbow, one guy had a small hole at entry and a slightly bigger exit wound. The second guy lost muscle from above where he was hit then down the arm for maybe 4 inches. Plus the bones were trashed.

Why did one guy have a massive wound and the other didn't ?

I don't know.

I used to have a lot of conversations with Jim Cirillo of NYPD stake out fame and like I said the my PCC thread he told me M1 carbine with 125 grain hollow points was the only weapon they used that had a 100% rate of 1 shot stops.

I am convinced that at about 2000 feet per second, we go from iffy power, to power that seems to do a lot more damage to live flesh.

But here is my rules for gun fights.

Tactics- which means being aware of what is around you and have spent so much time training and thinking about gun fights it comes like a flow of water to you. It also means you are on the attack and not receiving end.
Cover- If it isn't over in the first few shots you must move to cover
Shot placement- I don't care what fire arm you are using shot placement wins fights.
Mental grit- Never ever give up

I have won a lot of gun fights using 9mm ball and the above formula. I am not saying this is the best ammo you can get. I will however admit to always have a mag or 2 of hot subgun 9mm ball ammo with me even today so I can shoot through cover with a better chance of success.

I believe if we can achieve the 2000fps out of a small PCC or even a handgun, that has the potential to be a game changer.

[WillBrink]

9mm is well 9mm, 40S&W is 10mm, 45acp is 11.43mm.

So the difference between 9mm and 45 is 2.43mm, now go look how small that is then some back and tell me you think 2,43mm is a game changer.

Vid from the SME's at Federal on the topic, saying essentially same thing:



Now, someone will ignore that and tell us awesome the .45 is to the 9mm...

[yoni]

I carried a 1911 in 45acp, I had to buy my own ammo. I would down load a Hi Power to 8 rounds in the mag in training to cut cost, then carry the 1911 for real.

The 1911 almost got me killed.

Screw 1911 and 45acp.

Give me lots of tiny little 9mm, 2.43mm smaller. I wonder if a bunch of gun guys know how to measure things.

No baby that really is 7 inches.

[Ron3]

So what would you (anyone) rather have for personal time protection same gun same weight; 8 rds of 9x19 fmj (124 gr 1150 fps) or 13 rds of 7.65x17 mm (.32 acp) (73 gr 1000 fps) ?

Just food for thought.

[WillBrink]

So what would you (anyone) rather have for personal time protection same gun same weight; 8 rds of 9x19 fmj (124 gr 1150 fps) or 13 rds of 7.65x17 mm (.32 acp) (73 gr 1000 fps) ?

Just food for thought.

No thought needed: the 9mm as it meets all the criteria for penetration and expansion, where as the .32 does not. The 9mm continue to be the smallest handgun caliber that reliably meets the criteria. Above the 9mm, in typical duty loads, little is gained and offset by recoil, capacity, size of gun. Hence, again, where all things balanced and accounted for, is the 9mm.