JOINT AGENCY BALLISTICS TEST FOR DEFENSIVE HANDGUN AMMUNITION

[C-grunt]

So what would you (anyone) rather have for personal time protection same gun same weight; 8 rds of 9x19 fmj (124 gr 1150 fps) or 13 rds of 7.65x17 mm (.32 acp) (73 gr 1000 fps) ?

Just food for thought.

I cant remember a specific shooting with 32 ACP but from my experience the 380 and below cartridges can exhibit very shallow penetration at times. Also the barrier penetration is lacking. Maybe the 32 hits a sweet spot of sectional density, I dont know. But I do know what 9mm ball round will do and it's definitely not lacking penetration.

[Ron3]

No thought needed: the 9mm as it meets all the criteria for penetration and expansion, where as the .32 does not. The 9mm continue to be the smallest handgun caliber that reliably meets the criteria. Above the 9mm, in typical duty loads, little is gained and offset by recoil, capacity, size of gun. Hence, again, where all things balanced and accounted for, is the 9mm.

I'm talking about fmj. .32 does meet the "criteria" for bare and clothed gelatin. I've never seen it tested against wood, steel, etc. though. I don't think .32 would do well vs laminated glass.

As for speed I'm undecided about that myself but I'm going to run a comparison between my Beretta Cheetah and a Hellcat. Maybe a Bill Drill.

[WillBrink]

I'm talking about fmj. .32 does meet the "criteria" for bare and clothed gelatin. I've never seen it tested against wood, steel, etc. though. I don't think .32 would do well vs laminated glass.

As for speed I'm undecided about that myself but I'm going to run a comparison between my Beretta Cheetah and a Hellcat. Maybe a Bill Drill.

And the advice for anyone considering anything below 9mm, FMJ is what's recommended. But, I'd think most here are focused on modern JHP, and or, some of the newer hybrid stuff such as the Lehigh Defense that appears to test so well. Here's their .32 offering. Maybe it makes the .32 more a viable SD rnd?

https://www.lehighdefense.com/32-aut...dgun-ammo.html

[Ron3]

I cant remember a specific shooting with 32 ACP but from my experience the 380 and below cartridges can exhibit very shallow penetration at times. Also the barrier penetration is lacking. Maybe the 32 hits a sweet spot of sectional density, I dont know. But I do know what 9mm ball round will do and it's definitely not lacking penetration.

.32 fmj can give acceptable penetration without barriers if it's a warmer load from a 3.5 + inch barrel.

It can be as hot as a S&B 73 gr round from a Vz61 at @1125 fps, 1000 fps from a Beretta 81, down to Geco fmj from a Kel-tec at 750 fps. Pretty wide range.

I'm using the near best-case performance of .32 vs the worst of 9mm (fmj) I know.

But am i more likely to get hurt if attacked solely because I'm shooting .32 acp instead of a heavier, faster bullet? Maybe?

[WillBrink]

And the advice for anyone considering anything below 9mm, FMJ is what's recommended. But, I'd think most here are focused on modern JHP, and or, some of the newer hybrid stuff such as the Lehigh Defense that appears to test so well. Here's their .32 offering. Maybe it makes the .32 more a viable SD rnd?

https://www.lehighdefense.com/32-aut...dgun-ammo.html

These look promising:

[Ron3]

And the advice for anyone considering anything below 9mm, FMJ is what's recommended. But, I'd think most here are focused on modern JHP, and or, some of the newer hybrid stuff such as the Lehigh Defense that appears to test so well. Here's their .32 offering. Maybe it makes the .32 more a viable SD rnd?

https://www.lehighdefense.com/32-aut...dgun-ammo.html

I dunno.

925 fps with a 50 gr bullet? I've had older Fiocchi 60 gr JHP approach 1200 fps.

Maybe their velocity is from a Kel-tec or similar?

What I really want is greater holster selection and an optic mount on my Beretta Cheetahs. I'm not sure its possible.

So, I got a Hellcat instead. Haven't fired it yet. So far it doesn't draw from the waist as well (as in smoothly or fast or consistently) as a Cheetah or Ruger LCR. Small grip.

But I'll keep working with it.

[WillBrink]

I dunno.

925 fps with a 50 gr bullet? I've had older Fiocchi 60 gr JHP approach 1200 fps.

Maybe their velocity is from a Kel-tec or similar?

What I really want is greater holster selection and an optic mount on my Beretta Cheetahs. I'm not sure its possible.

So, I got a Hellcat instead. Haven't fired it yet. So far it doesn't draw from the waist as well (as in smoothly or fast or consistently) as a Cheetah or Ruger LCR. Small grip.

But I'll keep working with it.

But it's about terminal performance vs velocity per se, and those bullets appear to perform well given the limitations. Less recoil from the mouse gun and better terminal performance, sounds like a potential winner there. See vid posted.

[C-grunt]

.32 fmj can give acceptable penetration without barriers if it's a warmer load from a 3.5 + inch barrel.

It can be as hot as a S&B 73 gr round from a Vz61 at @1125 fps, 1000 fps from a Beretta 81, down to Geco fmj from a Kel-tec at 750 fps. Pretty wide range.

I'm using the near best-case performance of .32 vs the worst of 9mm (fmj) I know.

But am i more likely to get hurt if attacked solely because I'm shooting .32 acp instead of a heavier, faster bullet? Maybe?

When talking about barrier you gotta remember that body parts can act as barriers too. If a guy is shooting at you, his chest is likely being covered by his arms. So you might have to get a bullet through a wrist, hand, or forearm before you even get it to the chest.

A straight on frontal shot will most likely have enough penetration, but how well is a 73 grain bullet going to do against hand or wrist bones?

Again I cant remember a specific 32 ACP shooting Ive investigated but from my experience the rounds start to get iffy at 380 ACP. From my experience 380 FMJ offers adequate penetration most of the time. But I remember a few distinct instances were even FMJ 380 had less than adequate penetration. Maybe a 32 does better but I wouldn't bet money on it.

Another issue is having to rely on FMJ. Im not one of those people that says FMJ doesnt work because Ive seen a lot of people shot with FMJ in pretty much every caliber and it jacks you up. But hollow points offer benefits besides the bigger wound aspect. FMJ ammo seems to deflect more than hollow points do. Ive read theories that the sharp leading edge will "bite" into surfaces while the rounded edged of a FMJ are more likely to skip off or ride around the object. Ive seen deflection like that with hollow points too but it seems to happen more with FMJ and others have reported the same thing.

[DirectTo]

Im not one of those people that says FMJ doesnt work because Ive seen a lot of people shot with FMJ in pretty much every caliber and it jacks you up.

To steal from your signature: No dude is going to get shot in the chest at 300 yards and look down and say "What is that, a 3 MOA group?"
No dude is going to get shot in the chest with a .32 or .380 and shrug it off because it wasn’t a 9x19 or .45.

Shots on target with adequate penetration end a fight. At some point pistol caliber is an academic exercise and it becomes much more about how well the shooter can rapidly engage and provide follow up shots. The fallacy that someone will get hit with a single .45 and drop (or a 10mm and explode) doesn’t hold a candle to a guy or gal with a .32 who practices regularly. And of course none of it means a thing if people don’t have some sort of situational awareness.

[okie]

So what would you (anyone) rather have for personal time protection same gun same weight; 8 rds of 9x19 fmj (124 gr 1150 fps) or 13 rds of 7.65x17 mm (.32 acp) (73 gr 1000 fps) ?

Just food for thought.

.32 is just on the very, very edge of the bare minimum horsepower if you get my meaning. It doesn't leave any margin for error. Big dude wearing thick clothes, some light barrier like an interior door or drywall, a hand or arm covering the target, oblique angles, etc. will all pretty much defeat .32 ACP. Even in a straight on, unobstructed gimme scenario, it might fail to penetrate or glance off a rib or something. And that's all in FMJ form. Don't even think about carrying .32 hollow points.

The thing to keep in mind is that people don't just stand there and let you shoot them, and human bodies aren't made out of ballistic gel. They're muscle and bone, and a whole bunch of sinews and intersecting tissue planes. And when confronted with an armed assailant, they reflexively turn their shoulder towards the threat and cover their vitals with their weak hand while shooting back with the strong hand, which just so happens to also be in front of their heart. And naturally they try to duck behind anything available.

9mm only overpenetrates if you're assuming a target standing square to you with their arms down, and no barriers. If assuming all of the above, it's pretty much the bare minimum of what's required to be reliable in the real world.