Hardball vs. Hardball----Does Caliber Matter?

[indianalex01]

It's energy. Bigger rock, bigger splash when you throw it in the pond. Or you can throw a small rock harder to achieve the same size splash. Of course there's more to it than that, but energy levels are a pretty good indicator of how a bullet might perform. Again, though, there's a documented case of a 223 gold dot passing within a fraction of an inch of a guy's heart and him still being able to shoot back after that. Everything in the A zone is extremely resilient and therefore extremely resistant to tearing.

The reason .45 doesn't make a bigger hole, aside from the entrance wound, is that human tissue can stretch way beyond any caliber we could carry and bounce back unharmed. Anything from .22 to .50 is going to leave more or less the same sized hole.

ETA: Oh, the reason things change somewhat with 10mm and up is that those are the threshold energy levels required to make a big enough stretch cavity to start tearing flesh in significant ways. Some studies have shown that permanent cavities can start to form around the 500 ft lbs level, but it's minute to nonexistent in the types of tissue we're concerned with.

The temp cavity starts to become permanent at 2000 FPS. Not a 10mm velocities.

[indianalex01]

I had a conversation with a Chicago PD officer who shot an armed suspect with a .45 ACP service pistol. He placed two rounds of 185g JHP +P in the sternum of the suspect at close range, then the suspect dropped his handgun and ran away. He found the suspect several blocks away after the suspect lost enough blood to induce a heart attack. Up until that point, the .45 ACP was his preferred caliber in a service pistol cartridge.

A service pistol caliber is the recommendation I would make to someone who wants to buy a defensive handgun. The .25 ACP, .22 LR, etc. are not service pistol calibers. How many rounds it will take to stop an attacker is unknown and magazine capacity would be a consideration when making a choice.

So what did the cop go with since 45 isn’t good enough for him? 44 mag? I mean Im sure you must have talked about what he carries since the 45 doesn’t stop people.

[WillBrink]

So what did the cop go with since 45 isn’t good enough for him? 44 mag? I mean Im sure you must have talked about what he carries since the 45 doesn’t stop people.

Some how I don't see Chicago PD authorizing the .44 Mag as a duty weapon. I suspect, .45 is as big caliber wise as they allow. Some PDs give some choices as to what LEOs can use on duty, as well as off, some don't. Here's ChitHole Cago:

http://directives.chicagopolice.org/...cb24a817d.html

[Arik]

I had a conversation with a Chicago PD officer who shot an armed suspect with a .45 ACP service pistol. He placed two rounds of 185g JHP +P in the sternum of the suspect at close range, then the suspect dropped his handgun and ran away. He found the suspect several blocks away after the suspect lost enough blood to induce a heart attack. Up until that point, the .45 ACP was his preferred caliber in a service pistol cartridge.

A service pistol caliber is the recommendation I would make to someone who wants to buy a defensive handgun. The .25 ACP, .22 LR, etc. are not service pistol calibers. How many rounds it will take to stop an attacker is unknown and magazine capacity would be a consideration when making a choice.

Plenty of examples like that. About 10 years ago 40 minutes from me homeowner shoots an intruder. Two rounds of 220gr 45acp to the upper stomach area. Cops found the guy wondering around the next morning. In pain but not in serious condition.

Cop in MN tries to stop a mall theft. Guy turns and shoots the cop 7 times with a 45, two of which hit him in the face. After a brief struggle the cop kills the thief with a 9mm. There were pictures and an interview on YouTube a few years ago. The 45 call holes in his face looked like 22lr

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[DG23]

Steel targets, clay blocks, etc are not people. I really don't have an interest in what a pistol bullet will do to any of those things.

It has to do with the energy imparted to the object hit and a 45 ACP will have more energy all day long than a 9mm. Bump up the speed to the same as 9mm (not impossible as I mentioned earlier) and that is a LOT more energy than a 9mm.

If baddie is wearing a vest that 9mm is doing nothing to it or the chest behind it. You might as well be throwing rocks...

[DG23]

and the added capacity, reduced recoil, etc, gives the 9mm the edge, and why so many orgs have returned to it.

Or... They returned to something smaller because they have so many women (diversity / quotas / etc.) on the force now that can't handle anything bigger.

[WillBrink]

It has to do with the energy imparted to the object hit and a 45 ACP will have more energy all day long than a 9mm. Bump up the speed to the same as 9mm (not impossible as I mentioned earlier) and that is a LOT more energy than a 9mm.

If baddie is wearing a vest that 9mm is doing nothing to it or the chest behind it. You might as well be throwing rocks...

The "energy dump" hypothesis in typical duty pistol loads was debunked a long time ago, as in decades. The energy between them is minimal, and again, the seminal doc to read to understand the topic is "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" by Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT FBI ACADEMY QUANTICO:

http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf

[WillBrink]

Or... They returned to something smaller because they have so many women (diversity / quotas / etc.) on the force now that can't handle anything bigger.

Might be a factor, but the primary variable was it was found that modern JHP's in common duty loads had very similar terminal ballistics, but others here are more qualified to answer that as it applies to how/why PDs and fed orgs made their choices for duty loads.

[vicious_cb]

It has to do with the energy imparted to the object hit and a 45 ACP will have more energy all day long than a 9mm. Bump up the speed to the same as 9mm (not impossible as I mentioned earlier) and that is a LOT more energy than a 9mm.

If baddie is wearing a vest that 9mm is doing nothing to it or the chest behind it. You might as well be throwing rocks...

Congrats, You just rehashed every 9mm vs .45 myth in one post. I can't take this thread seriously after this.

But yes you should be using .45 ACP. Because while 9mm may kill, .45 ACP will take his soul.

[WillBrink]

Congrats, You just rehashed every disproven and debunked 9mm vs .45 myth in one post. I can't take this thread seriously after this.

Fixed it for ya. 13 pages, and some just refuse to learn what's been known/established for decades now. At least "stopping power" was not brought up.