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Thread: Hardball vs. Hardball----Does Caliber Matter?

  1. #81
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    I like history. I use to study it more back in the day. Well, not really study per say but just read whatever I could find that was interesting. This was back before the internet. Library cards where mandatory then. Some of you reading this will understand. Some of you reading this will never understand that world. Either way it probably doesn't matter.

    Anyway back in that long ago world of reading books I read about the 9mm, its first use by the Germans and how the original ammo was loaded with truncated cone FMJ. The short story is after they started shooting people with the flat nosed full metal jackets the big burly men on the opposing side during WW1 figured it was too effective for such a small cartridge and that it should be a war crime to use such deadly ammo and supposedly our side started killing captured soldiers that had the flat nosed FMJ's in their possession. Mind you it was completely OK to shoot someone with RN FMJ from a 45. Just don't do it with a flat nosed 9mm. THAT was inhumane. Wounds were just too grotesque. So that's why they switched to RN FMJ's.

    I spent the last hour trying to find documentation or info to support the above but couldn't really find anything solid academically and at this point I don't want to spend anymore time on it. The most recent place I read about it was in an article in Hand Loader magazine by Terry Weiland. I was kind of disappointed that nobody else has knowledge of the above. Considering the topic of discussion I would have thought someone would have brought it up. But then I should point out that this happened over 100 years ago and was a brief occurrence in the world of small arms.

  2. #82
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    German 1917 round-nose ball on the left, 1915 truncated cone ball (DWM 1913 pattern) on the right:


  3. #83
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    I would love to read more on the move from truncated cone 9mm to round nose.

    I have to say I have never heard this before and I am really shocked by this. I used to hang around with 3 very smart people that were into guns. Two of which have passed away.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by twm134 View Post
    I like history. I use to study it more back in the day. Well, not really study per say but just read whatever I could find that was interesting. This was back before the internet. Library cards where mandatory then. Some of you reading this will understand. Some of you reading this will never understand that world. Either way it probably doesn't matter.

    Anyway back in that long ago world of reading books I read about the 9mm, its first use by the Germans and how the original ammo was loaded with truncated cone FMJ. The short story is after they started shooting people with the flat nosed full metal jackets the big burly men on the opposing side during WW1 figured it was too effective for such a small cartridge and that it should be a war crime to use such deadly ammo and supposedly our side started killing captured soldiers that had the flat nosed FMJ's in their possession. Mind you it was completely OK to shoot someone with RN FMJ from a 45. Just don't do it with a flat nosed 9mm. THAT was inhumane. Wounds were just too grotesque. So that's why they switched to RN FMJ's.

    I spent the last hour trying to find documentation or info to support the above but couldn't really find anything solid academically and at this point I don't want to spend anymore time on it. The most recent place I read about it was in an article in Hand Loader magazine by Terry Weiland. I was kind of disappointed that nobody else has knowledge of the above. Considering the topic of discussion I would have thought someone would have brought it up. But then I should point out that this happened over 100 years ago and was a brief occurrence in the world of small arms.
    Quote Originally Posted by yoni View Post
    I would love to read more on the move from truncated cone 9mm to round nose.

    I have to say I have never heard this before and I am really shocked by this. I used to hang around with 3 very smart people that were into guns. Two of which have passed away.
    Very interested in this as well. While my primary 9mm carry load is the 147gr HST, but reserve carry load is also my primary training round - Federal 147gr FMJFP.

  5. #85
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    I sent the photo of the 2 German rounds to my partner, and he shocked me to no end when he repeated back the history of the bullets 20 seconds later.

    He then replied nice try, you tried to catch me on something you know all about and you hoped I wouldn't know what it was.

    I told him of course, I tried to catch him but was not able to do so for he is a subject matter expert.

  6. #86
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    Sorry guys, I haven't been able to find any legitimate or verifiable source for the terminal ballistics of the truncated cone being the reason for the change. Only anecdotal stories. Mostly that the French thought it was an illegal bullet at the time and threatened to kill any German POW that had it on them when captured.

    I doubt the shape of the truncated cone resulted in wounds that were significantly greater in there wounding capability. However I have shot numerous animals with round nose projectiles in calibers from 22 up to 45 and have never been impressed with the results. I've also done the same with non expanding flat nose bullets and continue to use them today for hunting because they work well. Hardly scientific though.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by twm134 View Post
    Sorry guys, I haven't been able to find any legitimate or verifiable source for the terminal ballistics of the truncated cone being the reason for the change. Only anecdotal stories. Mostly that the French thought it was an illegal bullet at the time and threatened to kill any German POW that had it on them when captured.

    I doubt the shape of the truncated cone resulted in wounds that were significantly greater in there wounding capability. However I have shot numerous animals with round nose projectiles in calibers from 22 up to 45 and have never been impressed with the results. I've also done the same with non expanding flat nose bullets and continue to use them today for hunting because they work well. Hardly scientific though.
    I could see the flat nose being a pretty big advantage in a battlefield setting. At close range (i.e. self defense distance), 9mm is highly unlikely to fail, but at the end of its effective range glancing off bone is a real problem.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by twm134 View Post
    Sorry guys, I haven't been able to find any legitimate or verifiable source for the terminal ballistics of the truncated cone being the reason for the change. Only anecdotal stories. Mostly that the French thought it was an illegal bullet at the time and threatened to kill any German POW that had it on them when captured.

    I doubt the shape of the truncated cone resulted in wounds that were significantly greater in there wounding capability. However I have shot numerous animals with round nose projectiles in calibers from 22 up to 45 and have never been impressed with the results. I've also done the same with non expanding flat nose bullets and continue to use them today for hunting because they work well. Hardly scientific though.
    I could see the flat nose being a pretty big advantage in a battlefield setting. At close range (i.e. self defense distance), 9mm is highly unlikely to fail, but at the end of its effective range glancing off bone is a real problem.

  9. #89
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    I remember using the truncated cone rounds in bowling pin competition years ago (it was common in .40 S&W at the time). They *seemed* less prone to deflect on a less than solid center hit. But without high-speed photographic analysis, who knows. It might have just been wishful thinking.


    Sent from 80ms in the future

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoni View Post
    I was forced to carry ball ammo at one point in my career, I was one of the few guys that carried a 1911.

    It almost got me killed in one incident, it didn't put the guy down and I ran out of bb's before I thought to move to his head. It took one of the other lads shoving his commando over my shoulder and shooting the terrorist in the head to save my life.

    I later was told I had to start using a Hi Power also with ball. I had the same kind of attack and I shot the terrorist in the heart and then transitioned to a shot to the head. Problem solved.

    I became a 9mm fan that day.

    I will tell the truth that most people don't want to hear. You bullet construction will have less than 1% impact on the outcome of your gun fight. Tactics and shot placement, are what counts.

    The problem with handgun gun fights is that handguns suck at stopping people. Then we add the unknown of how many rounds will it take to stop that bad guy on that day. I really believe that on Monday the same bad guy make take only 1 round to stop but on Tuesday due to factors outside of anyone's control that same guy might take 20 rounds to stop him
    Best post ever.
    Pat
    Serving as a LEO since 1999.
    USPSA# A56876 A Class
    Firearms Instructor
    Armorer for AR15, 1911, Glocks and Remington 870 shotguns.

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