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Thread: Hardball vs. Hardball----Does Caliber Matter?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicious_cb View Post

    That should be the take home lesson with pistols, if you dont hit something important it doesnt matter what you have loaded in the gun.
    In addition to what you wrote I add that when you do hit something very important it also, most likely, wont matter what your gun is loaded with as far as the next several seconds of fighting.

    That matters more to LE than the person just trying to survive.

    I think handgun performance is a narrow spectrum of performance not a wide one. (Magnum hunting calibers excluded)

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arik View Post
    With the quantity of quality guns and ammo today this shouldn't be a problem. Like worrying about rough idling or flooding a carbureted car

    Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk
    probably the majority of situations, key word is: "shouldn't" 1911 seems to be the most trouble-prone albeit it was never designed for hollow point.

    modern bullet design is pretty good, my HP has never complained about anything I've run through it. I use plain old winchester 147 gr HP, been using those for decades in it and never had a single jam. Perhaps not the latest and greatest in bullet tech but they're anvil reliable in my HP.

    I never bothered with any HP ammo in my 1911, ball was what I originally used then switched to cast semi flat nosed & have used that for 30 years.

    I do see many accounts of guns having issues with various types of ammo, mostly non-ball ammo. Speaking for myself if there is the slightest chance of an issue with any ammo, I won't use it.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1168 View Post
    I don’t think this happens as frequently as is implied on the internet, although I have seen it, after a (rimfire, IIRC) projectile went through a dudes PVS14. Definitely not common with “execution style” up close shots. At least not in my experience; I haven’t tried to find stats, but I’ve seen a lot of GSWs.

    I think in the context of deflecting on intermediate barriers, a round nose is more likely to deflect. In the context of humans getting shot in the face? I dunno. Maybe. Seems like more of an urban legend to me. I do believe flatter noses have a tendency to track straighter, and maybe even produce better wounds.

    I have not read J Carrillo.
    .22lr through the pvs14? I would love to know the story behind that one!

  4. #64
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    Can we please remember some basic facts, handguns suck for shooting people.

    We only should use a handgun when we are prevented from using a rifle.

    When using a handguns, regardless of the type of bullet is in the gun shoot till you end the threat. This is why I am a fan of 9mm pistols more BB's on board.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoni View Post
    Can we please remember some basic facts, handguns suck for shooting people.

    We only should use a handgun when we are prevented from using a rifle.

    When using a handguns, regardless of the type of bullet is in the gun shoot till you end the threat. This is why I am a fan of 9mm pistols more BB's on board.
    I follow your logic to a point, based on your prior experience, BUT ...

    you shot a guy until lock-back with a 1911, and a comrade had to put him down with a carbine.

    What difference does it make if you have a 13+1 .45 Glock or a 13+1 Browning High Power? A 21-shot FN 5.7 or HK?

    No argument you should bring a rifle if you KNOW you're going to a gunfight.

    I don't think your buddy would have just waited for you to get hit with an axe. I imagine he was probably a peer as well. If he was a boss I think besides making you go to a 9mm he would have directed you back to practice more.

    Just my two cents. Not trying to be harsh or judgmental, nor sound like an A-hole.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinister View Post
    I follow your logic to a point, based on your prior experience, BUT ...

    you shot a guy until lock-back with a 1911, and a comrade had to put him down with a carbine.

    What difference does it make if you have a 13+1 .45 Glock or a 13+1 Browning High Power? A 21-shot FN 5.7 or HK?

    No argument you should bring a rifle if you KNOW you're going to a gunfight.

    I don't think your buddy would have just waited for you to get hit with an axe. I imagine he was probably a peer as well. If he was a boss I think besides making you go to a 9mm he would have directed you back to practice more.

    Just my two cents. Not trying to be harsh or judgmental, nor sound like an A-hole.
    Exactly. I'm guessing Yoni would have fired dry with a 9 as well. That's all it will ever be is a guess. Would he have regained enough cognitive ability to ring the bell prior to lock back if he had a few more rounds. I doubt it. His brain was holding on to the one reptilian thought it could muster. "Shoot threat!" No criticism, and it doesn't negate his round count argument. It's just what happens sometimes. Your higher functions can vapor lock on you sometimes, no matter how experienced you may be.

    Teamwork rules.
    Not high speed, low drag. More like ten under, blinker on.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoni View Post
    Can we please remember some basic facts, handguns suck for shooting people.

    We only should use a handgun when we are prevented from using a rifle.

    When using a handguns, regardless of the type of bullet is in the gun shoot till you end the threat. This is why I am a fan of 9mm pistols more BB's on board.
    I follow your logic to a point, based on your prior experience, BUT ...

    you shot a guy until lock-back with a 1911, and a comrade had to put him down with a carbine.

    What difference does it make if you have a 13+1 .45 Glock or a 13+1 Browning High Power? A 21-shot FN 5.7 or HK?

    No argument you should bring a rifle if you KNOW you're going to a gunfight.

    I don't think your buddy would have just waited for you to get hit with an axe. I imagine he was probably a peer as well. If he was a boss I think besides making you go to a 9mm he would have directed you back to practice more.

    Just my two cents. Not trying to be harsh or judgmental, nor sound like an A-hole.

  8. #68
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    I used to be a 45acp only guy. I read Cooper and Taylor and others of the 45acp camp.

    But I gained experience and was around others that came from other units that were in the same business just for different countries. I had a bad incident with my .45acp, I have seen all pistol calibers fail, and I have seen all pistol calibers work.

    I have come to understand that pistol fights involve tactics, awareness, shot placement, and maybe even moving to cover. But in my view it also involves what I think of as "economics of motion". Which means the longer I can shoot without having to reload, the better off I am.

    Now regarding the Glock 21 V Hi Power, both with 13 round magazines. I would still go with the Hi Power, I can shoot 9mm a little faster than 45acp. I have owned a Glock 21 in the past and still own a Glock 30.

    One of my friends got to buy his customized 1911, this pistol was built for the lads in the unit and it is a way cool gun. But he carried a Glock 9mm in Astan and Iraq, and now at home a Glock 9mm. We both independent of each other came to the same place, we met after we both had left .45acp behind.

    But if you have a glock 21 or a double stack 45 1911, you like to carry, go for it. I don't think it will be a choice that will hurt you in a gun fight.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinister View Post
    I follow your logic to a point, based on your prior experience, BUT ...

    you shot a guy until lock-back with a 1911, and a comrade had to put him down with a carbine.

    What difference does it make if you have a 13+1 .45 Glock or a 13+1 Browning High Power? A 21-shot FN 5.7 or HK?

    No argument you should bring a rifle if you KNOW you're going to a gunfight.

    I don't think your buddy would have just waited for you to get hit with an axe. I imagine he was probably a peer as well. If he was a boss I think besides making you go to a 9mm he would have directed you back to practice more.

    Just my two cents. Not trying to be harsh or judgmental, nor sound like an A-hole.
    Skill or lack thereof isn't always the problem. Taking someone down with any gun short of a cannon is a statistical proposition. Just like you have outliers in the one shot stop category, there are also outliers in the opposite end of the spectrum, where someone will survive an entire magazine of expertly placed bullets.

    The target is actually quite small. Nobody can reliably hit a moving target that small, especially under stress. But you can get good enough to fire groups into a target small enough, that statistically one of them is highly likely to hit.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoni View Post
    But I gained experience and was around others that came from other units that were in the same business just for different countries. I had a bad incident with my .45acp, I have seen all pistol calibers fail, and I have seen all pistol calibers work.

    I have come to understand that pistol fights involve tactics, awareness, shot placement, and maybe even moving to cover. But in my view it also involves what I think of as "economics of motion". Which means the longer I can shoot without having to reload, the better off I am.
    We have another winner folks. Sadly most people will fail to get these golden nuggets you are dropping.

    I wouldnt never fault the shooter for dumping a magazine into someones chest cavity and they still didnt go down. You can miss vital structures and major bleeders by mm's and they'll still keep on fighting. Conversely you can blow up someones heart and they still have enough o2 in their brain to fight for another 20-30 secs.

    The entire point of choosing good ammo is when you put it all together: tactics, awareness, shot placement ect. is that a minuscule thing like ammo selection doesn't derail the whole thing.

    Its like designing a 1 billion dollar submarine and a hatch gets left open during a dive. Choosing good ammo isnt hard, read something like DocGKR's thread and order some good ammo while you're on the toilet.
    Last edited by vicious_cb; 04-08-21 at 21:00.

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