Hardball vs. Hardball----Does Caliber Matter?

[C-grunt]

The temp cavity starts to become permanent at 2000 FPS. Not a 10mm velocities.

Mass and bullet shape also play a factor. Doc Roberts stated they start seeing serious wounding mechanism from temporary stretch cavitation when using heavy 44 mag loads, which dont hit anywhere near 2000 FPS. There is a reason why handgun hunters use a wide meplat bullet when hunting large and dangerous game.

[T2C]

So what did the cop go with since 45 isn’t good enough for him? 44 mag? I mean Im sure you must have talked about what he carries since the 45 doesn’t stop people.

He traded his .45 ACP pistol for a Model 459 S&W chambered in 9mm, which he carried for the rest of his career. Thankfully, he is retired now. He did not hate the .45 ACP after the shooting. The .45 ACP was not the magic man stopper he had heard so many times from other people, so he decided a higher capacity service pistol was a good idea for duty use.

Pistols suck at stopping people. Sometimes it takes one shot, sometimes it takes several. Sometimes several won't work.

[okie]

The temp cavity starts to become permanent at 2000 FPS. Not a 10mm velocities.

There's no magic number where velocity irrespective of bullet weight starts do anything. Generally speaking, around the 500 ft lbs level you start to see tearing in certain tissues. Depending on the tissue, it may even be dramatic, like in the liver or brain. Around 1k ft lbs is when you start seeing pretty significant tearing in muscle tissue, shattering of bones, etc.

[indianalex01]

There's no magic number where velocity irrespective of bullet weight starts do anything. Generally speaking, around the 500 ft lbs level you start to see tearing in certain tissues. Depending on the tissue, it may even be dramatic, like in the liver or brain. Around 1k ft lbs is when you start seeing pretty significant tearing in muscle tissue, shattering of bones, etc.

Not true. 2000 FPS is where temp cavity starts to become permanent. That why rifles do more damage then pistols.

[yoni]

[QUOTE=DG23;2965346

If baddie is wearing a vest that 9mm is doing nothing to it or the chest behind it. You might as well be throwing rocks...[/QUOTE]

Which is why my primary target is it is close is to shoot them in the face. This became my way of doing things after my first 9mm shooting where I transitioned from the body to a head shot. So I got thinking if they are close enough, just start with the head.

You can carry for 45 or 460 Roland in good health.

[indianalex01]

He traded his .45 ACP pistol for a Model 459 S&W chambered in 9mm, which he carried for the rest of his career. Thankfully, he is retired now. He did not hate the .45 ACP after the shooting. The .45 ACP was not the magic man stopper he had heard so many times from other people, so he decided a higher capacity service pistol was a good idea for duty use.

Pistols suck at stopping people. Sometimes it takes one shot, sometimes it takes several. Sometimes several won't work.

So let me get this straight… he said 45 didn’t stop someone in a shooting so he switches to a smaller bullet? Sounds weird to me but ok.

[yoni]

Much better is, people who do not carry with one in the pipe, and will say that's how the Israelis do it, so good enough for them. Heard that one plenty of times over the years. aka "The Israeli method."

It was done that way along time ago, due to almost ZERO training and having to throw people into combat in 48, sometimes 2 or more guys would share a rifle and if they were luck they might get a pistol.

But when you have a ton of different types of pistols and no time to teach the different systems, safety off, no bullet in the barrel, rack the slide to shoot worked .

Today no top unit, nor agency teaches or uses the "Israeli method".

[yoni]

Consider;

if Mr. Yoni, who I appreciate for going on the offensive against murderous religious zealots, had a Beretta Cheetah or CZ-83 in 7.65 mm / .32 acp or 9mm Short / .380 he would have had another 4-7 extra shots to put in his attackers face / head and are even more controllable than 9x19.

My point being .32 and .380 fmj should not be disrespected as much as they are.

I have been in situations unarmed, that got a little strange and thought it was going to be the end of me, when a RG .22 cal revolver with a broken grip would have given me comfort.

[yoni]

Not that I disagree but I think those people are thinking of the several hostage situations where Israeli agents managed to take out the terrorists with Beretta 22s in actual gun fights. Correct me if I'm wrong but there was one agent who was famous for that

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Sabina hijacked plane was taken back by Sayret Metkal, using .22 pistols If I remember they were suppressed. This was before my time, but the assault was done by stealth and they I think wanted to keep the killing of other terrorist in other parts of the plane low profile .

[yoni]

He will correct as needed, but I believe the primary use of suppressed .22 Beretta's were as tools of assassination, likely done from behind, very close, and to the back of head and the terrorist, Nazi, goblin never knew what hit them.

Or, I have read one too many spy novel...

No you have it correct, but for one case where the operator found the Nazi that command the camp where 99% of his family was murdered. He didn't report the location, but he grabbed a hammer he saw on the dock where the Nazi had his boat tied up and he then went aboard the Nazis boat and beat him to death with the hammer.

Damn, I forgot to ask if the hammer was 9mm or 45 and if it had a bullet up the pipe.