Hardball vs. Hardball----Does Caliber Matter?

[indianalex01]

Seriously? Again, What are the objective terminal ballistics differences?

And what Yoni said who does not need to "You tube it"...

My objective terminal ballistics are to stop a threat effectively. A 45 has more mass and momentum. It make a bigger hole. More damage. Penetration is deep. Pretty simple. I wanted to break it down in a language that everyone could easily understand. Now I will say that I carry a 9mm most days. It’s faster and lighter. 45 hits harder based on what Rob Leathem says and I agree. Chuck Taylor also agrees. I worked a Federal Ammunition for years. I seen the reports. 45 is better but it has its own issues as I mentioned earlier. Weight, recoil(compared to a 9mm) means slower follow up shots. I am not putting anyone down or disregarding anyone’s opinions. My opinion is based on what I have learned from my experience. Thanks

[DG23]

But Yoni, they make today hi cap 45's!

Yes they do.

But can you shoot it as fast and accurate as your 9mm?

If you have not already done so you really should try out a compensated 1911 that is actually tuned correctly and the ammo loaded FOR a compensated pistol. When everything is done right those things shoot extremely flat.

To put in better perspective - If I want to shoot +p level 45ACP loadings out of my 460 Rowland (think compensated 1911 here) I have to drop down to a 12 to 13lb recoil spring weight or it is not going to cycle. That is more or less the same exact recoil spring weight as my Beretta 92's from the factory. Both 'feel' the same as far as the way the slides rise / dip and both will shoot at about the same speed. If you shoot both 'side by side' at the range you really would say 'Damn - That 1911 feels just like the Beretta'.

Trying to keep my 45 vs 9mm comparison limited to full size Beretta 92's and steel, full size 1911's as they are both really close in the weight of the slides, barrel length, and the recoil spring sizes.


Yes, you get a slight bit more of a 'push' when firing those 45ACP +p rounds but the pistol stays 'flat' during the cycling just like a steel / heavy 9mm would...

What indianalex01 said with respect to 'Shoot steel plates and see which one falls harder and faster' is spot on in my opinion. That 45 is going to hit a LOT harder than the 9 every time. Bump up the speed to a 45ACP +p and it will hit even harder. In my case with the 460 Rowland if I want to bump that 230 grain pill up to 9mm velocity - I can. Twice as much weight traveling at the same speed is going to suck for anyone hit by it...

Saw a video (boxoftruth video?) once where they put a Kevlar vest on a big block of clay and shot at it with various round to see what forces would go through and impact the clay. Pistol bullets only and nothing 'armor piercing' that would actually penetrate the vest - They were looking to see what the different forces applied would do to the stuff behind the vest... The bigger and more powerful pistol rounds did a lot more damage than the smaller stuff did every time. Leaving craters instead of dents sort of damage.

After watching videos like that I just can't see how a little guy like me could possible walk away from getting hit center mass with a hot 45 round even if I had a Kevlar vest on. May not be a hole but for sure stuff is going to broken. Guessing there would be LOTS of stuff broken.

If bullet size /weight made absolutely zero difference everyone would be carrying a .22 something and be happy with it. Lots of reasons why they don't...

[okie]

45 and 9mm do not perform almost identically in FMJ. That is untrue.

In actual tissue, they do. Of course that's highly dependent on which we're talking about. You're going to see different characteristics based on bullet design, but in terms of cavitation they will be identical. The entrance wounds will look different. The variables are going to be penetration depth, deflection, and fragmentation. But given good bullet design, both are fully capable of the same performance in those regards. So whichever one you have, as long as you're buying high quality bullets like gold dots or HSTs you're good to go. Ditto for .40, .357 sig, .45 GAP, etc. When it comes to the duty calibers they're all good, you just have some that are more efficient than others, with 9mm being the gold standard. It does the same job but it does it cheaper with less weight, recoil, and wear on the firearm.

It's not until you get into full house 10mm, full house .357 from a long barrel, .44, etc. that you're going to start seeing some significant wound profiles that are much different from the standard duty calibers like .45 and 9mm. But with that said, there's a report of a guy who was shot dozens of times with a mixture of .40 and 223 gold dots, and none of them were show stoppers. One 223 gold dot had passed within a fraction of an inch of his heart, and he still didn't go down. Just goes to show that anything short of maybe a .50 cal is dependent on shot placement in the real world. What you need is a bullet that's appropriate for the range, that's going to get to the target and penetrate deep enough and in a straight enough line that if you do your job with shot placement the bullet is going to do its job. Virtually any duty caliber fits that bill when it comes to pistols that are able to be carried for self defense.

Would also add that nobody is good enough to hit a heart sized moving target reliably the first time. It's a numbers game. It's about being able to put 10 rounds in the A zone faster than the other guy, and that's going to put statistics on your side. So recoil mitigation without sacrificing performance is a massive factor in winning gunfights.

[Delta-3]

on Day X bad guy Y needs to be shot with good shot placement Z number of times to be stopped.

Your situational awareness, combined with your tactics, combined with your shot placement are what wins gun fights.

That right there is the definitive answer for fighting & winning with a pistol. ( to an extent, the rifle as well)

[indianalex01]

In actual tissue, they do. Of course that's highly dependent on which we're talking about. You're going to see different characteristics based on bullet design, but in terms of cavitation they will be identical. The entrance wounds will look different. The variables are going to be penetration depth, deflection, and fragmentation. But given good bullet design, both are fully capable of the same performance in those regards. So whichever one you have, as long as you're buying high quality bullets like gold dots or HSTs you're good to go. Ditto for .40, .357 sig, .45 GAP, etc. When it comes to the duty calibers they're all good, you just have some that are more efficient than others, with 9mm being the gold standard. It does the same job but it does it cheaper with less weight, recoil, and wear on the firearm.

It's not until you get into full house 10mm, full house .357 from a long barrel, .44, etc. that you're going to start seeing some significant wound profiles that are much different from the standard duty calibers like .45 and 9mm. But with that said, there's a report of a guy who was shot dozens of times with a mixture of .40 and 223 gold dots, and none of them were show stoppers. One 223 gold dot had passed within a fraction of an inch of his heart, and he still didn't go down. Just goes to show that anything short of maybe a .50 cal is dependent on shot placement in the real world. What you need is a bullet that's appropriate for the range, that's going to get to the target and penetrate deep enough and in a straight enough line that if you do your job with shot placement the bullet is going to do its job. Virtually any duty caliber fits that bill when it comes to pistols that are able to be carried for self defense.

Would also add that nobody is good enough to hit a heart sized moving target reliably the first time. It's a numbers game. It's about being able to put 10 rounds in the A zone faster than the other guy, and that's going to put statistics on your side. So recoil mitigation without sacrificing performance is a massive factor in winning gunfights.

I disagree with you. You said things change when it comes to 10mm, 357 and 44. How? Velocities aren’t that different. Once velocities get to 2000 FPS then things start to change. Not less then that. 45 makes a bigger hole then 9mm. It’s simple physics. The bigger the hole the more blood pours. Again, I carry a 9mm mostly but I try to be a realist. A lot of times people try to justify what they carry (not saying you) by saying something else isn’t as good to feel better about what they carry.

[vicious_cb]

I disagree with you. You said things change when it comes to 10mm, 357 and 44. How? Velocities aren’t that different. Once velocities get to 2000 FPS then things start to change. Not less then that. 45 makes a bigger hole then 9mm. It’s simple physics. The bigger the hole the more blood pours. Again, I carry a 9mm mostly but I try to be a realist. A lot of times people try to justify what they carry (not saying you) by saying something else isn’t as good to feel better about what they carry.

Again you just repeat "makes a bigger hole" like it means anything. It doesnt and that has been proven over and over from ER docs, autopsies and gel tests that wound tracks produced by .45 vs .355 FMJ projectiles are identical to the naked eye.

My objective terminal ballistics are to stop a threat effectively. A 45 has more mass and momentum. It make a bigger hole. More damage. Penetration is deep. Pretty simple. I wanted to break it down in a language that everyone could easily understand. Now I will say that I carry a 9mm most days. It’s faster and lighter. 45 hits harder based on what Rob Leathem says and I agree. Chuck Taylor also agrees. I worked a Federal Ammunition for years. I seen the reports. 45 is better but it has its own issues as I mentioned earlier. Weight, recoil(compared to a 9mm) means slower follow up shots. I am not putting anyone down or disregarding anyone’s opinions. My opinion is based on what I have learned from my experience. Thanks

More mass and momentum are meaningless when a 9mm FMJ can already go through 3 adult bodies back to back or punch through 2 interior walls and have still enough penetration to kill a person.

[okie]

I disagree with you. You said things change when it comes to 10mm, 357 and 44. How? Velocities aren’t that different. Once velocities get to 2000 FPS then things start to change. Not less then that. 45 makes a bigger hole then 9mm. It’s simple physics. The bigger the hole the more blood pours. Again, I carry a 9mm mostly but I try to be a realist. A lot of times people try to justify what they carry (not saying you) by saying something else isn’t as good to feel better about what they carry.

It's energy. Bigger rock, bigger splash when you throw it in the pond. Or you can throw a small rock harder to achieve the same size splash. Of course there's more to it than that, but energy levels are a pretty good indicator of how a bullet might perform. Again, though, there's a documented case of a 223 gold dot passing within a fraction of an inch of a guy's heart and him still being able to shoot back after that. Everything in the A zone is extremely resilient and therefore extremely resistant to tearing.

The reason .45 doesn't make a bigger hole, aside from the entrance wound, is that human tissue can stretch way beyond any caliber we could carry and bounce back unharmed. Anything from .22 to .50 is going to leave more or less the same sized hole.

ETA: Oh, the reason things change somewhat with 10mm and up is that those are the threshold energy levels required to make a big enough stretch cavity to start tearing flesh in significant ways. Some studies have shown that permanent cavities can start to form around the 500 ft lbs level, but it's minute to nonexistent in the types of tissue we're concerned with.

[yoni]

If bullet size /weight made absolutely zero difference everyone would be carrying a .22 something and be happy with it. Lots of reasons why they don't...

Steel targets, clay blocks, etc are not people. I really don't have an interest in what a pistol bullet will do to any of those things.

I care about winning a fight. I have carried a 1911 45acp into harms way and also 9mm Hi Power and now it is CZ P)9/07 9mm.

I am not trying to change anyone's mind about what they carry just share what I have lived.

This is what wins fights, on Day X bad guy Y needs to be shot with good shot placement Z number of times to be stopped.

Your situational awareness, combined with your tactics, combined with your shot placement are what wins gun fights.

I have never said carry a .22 for defending your life.

[T2C]

Steel targets, clay blocks, etc are not people. I really don't have an interest in what a pistol bullet will do to any of those things.

I care about winning a fight. I have carried a 1911 45acp into harms way and also 9mm Hi Power and now it is CZ P)9/07 9mm.

I am not trying to change anyone's mind about what they carry just share what I have lived.

This is what wins fights, on Day X bad guy Y needs to be shot with good shot placement Z number of times to be stopped.

Your situational awareness, combined with your tactics, combined with your shot placement are what wins gun fights.

I have never said carry a .22 for defending your life.

This is the correct answer IMHO. ^^^^^^

I've had conversations with people in the medical community who state "they did not need to shoot them this many times" to the press. One doctor stated a homeowner did not need to shoot a home invader as many times as he did and I asked "how many shots does it take to stop a determined attacker?" I asked "which shot stopped the attacker?" The doctor told me one shot is sufficient, which is horse hockey.

A month later the same doctor spoke to the press about a motorcycle fatality where the motorcyclist suffered a compound fracture to the femur, which severed the femoral artery causing him to bleed to death. The doctor stated "if he had been wearing a helmet, he'd still be alive." So much for the doctor's credibility.

It's difficult to rely on most members of the medical community for an educated opinion on what works and what does not. Ballistic gelatin can give us a general idea about what might happen to a projectile once it enters the human body under ideal circumstances. Shooting steel and clay targets can tell us how well a certain caliber performs on steel and clay targets. In my opinion, the most reliable information comes from people who have survived several gunfights.

[WillBrink]

My objective terminal ballistics are to stop a threat effectively. A 45 has more mass and momentum. It make a bigger hole. More damage. Penetration is deep. Pretty simple. I wanted to break it down in a language that everyone could easily understand. Now I will say that I carry a 9mm most days. It’s faster and lighter. 45 hits harder based on what Rob Leathem says and I agree. Chuck Taylor also agrees. I worked a Federal Ammunition for years. I seen the reports. 45 is better but it has its own issues as I mentioned earlier. Weight, recoil(compared to a 9mm) means slower follow up shots. I am not putting anyone down or disregarding anyone’s opinions. My opinion is based on what I have learned from my experience. Thanks

Which amounted to telling us to Youtube it. Leathem is not a combat shooter, nor an SME on the topic of terminal ballistics. The fact remains, there's a minimal difference between them, all pistols rnds in typical duty loads are poor manstoppers, and the added capacity, reduced recoil, etc, gives the 9mm the edge, and why so many orgs have returned to it. Now, again, from a "real world" perspective, from a member here - a highly vetted one at that - who has personally put goblins down using both, favored the 9mm for reasons he has given various places in this thread.

If one looks at n = 1 of a .45 vs 9mm in a vacuum, I can see the reason someone might choose the .45. In the real world and net balance when comparing them including all variables, the 9mm is the obvious choice. While aging, the seminal doc to read is via FBI doc "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness"

http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf