Hardball vs. Hardball----Does Caliber Matter?

[WillBrink]

This is the correct answer IMHO. ^^^^^^

I've had conversations with people in the medical community who state "they did not need to shoot them this many times" to the press. One doctor stated a homeowner did not need to shoot a home invader as many times as he did and I asked "how many shots does it take to stop a determined attacker?" I asked "which shot stopped the attacker?" The doctor told me one shot is sufficient, which is horse hockey.

A month later the same doctor spoke to the press about a motorcycle fatality where the motorcyclist suffered a compound fracture to the femur, which severed the femoral artery causing him to bleed to death. The doctor stated "if he had been wearing a helmet, he'd still be alive." So much for the doctor's credibility.

It's difficult to rely on most members of the medical community for an educated opinion on what works and what does not. Ballistic gelatin can give us a general idea about what might happen to a projectile once it enters the human body under ideal circumstances. Shooting steel and clay targets can tell us how well a certain caliber performs on steel and clay targets. In my opinion, the most reliable information comes from people who have survived several gunfights.

I had a debate with a doc who recommend .25 for SD, as he said he saw more dead guys with wounds from the .25 than any other as a pathologist and coroner. I explained to him death was not the metric of success for the shooter per se, as one could dump a mag of .25 into the person, who then beat you to death with that empty .25, then bleed out a mile down the road.

He could not fathom that reality that while stopping the threat may lead to death, death alone as the metric was literally useless as it applies to the issue. All it says is thugs, gang bangers and such often use the .25 in his AO as the guns are cheap and easy to conceal, and that's about it.

So per usual, context and the big picture has to be looked at there, and some of the most educated often incapable of doing so.

[Ron3]

350 Legend?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.350_Legend

Pretty darn close!

[yoni]

I have had people tell me that they carry a .22 for self defense because certain agencies and units from Israel have used suppressed .22 Beretta's in the past.

Which is so dumb as to have me questioning if the person should even have a gun.

Walking up behind someone that is in a relaxed state and emptying a magazine in the back of their head does not a face to face gun fight make.

[T2C]

I had a debate with a doc who recommend .25 for SD, as he said he saw more dead guys with wounds from the .25 than any other as a pathologist and coroner. I explained to him death was not the metric of success for the shooter per se, as one could dump a mag of .25 into the person, who then beat you to death with that empty .25, then bleed out a mile down the road.

He could not fathom that reality that while stopping the threat may lead to death, death alone as the metric was literally useless as it applies to the issue. All it says is thugs, gang bangers and such often use the .25 in his AO as the guns are cheap and easy to conceal, and that's about it.

So per usual, context and the big picture has to be looked at there, and some of the most educated often incapable of doing so.

I had a conversation with a Chicago PD officer who shot an armed suspect with a .45 ACP service pistol. He placed two rounds of 185g JHP +P in the sternum of the suspect at close range, then the suspect dropped his handgun and ran away. He found the suspect several blocks away after the suspect lost enough blood to induce a heart attack. Up until that point, the .45 ACP was his preferred caliber in a service pistol cartridge.

A service pistol caliber is the recommendation I would make to someone who wants to buy a defensive handgun. The .25 ACP, .22 LR, etc. are not service pistol calibers. How many rounds it will take to stop an attacker is unknown and magazine capacity would be a consideration when making a choice.

[Ron3]

I must say if a .451 fmj bullet doesn't do more damage than .355 fmj then I sure feel fine carrying my 3.8 in barrel Beretta with its .312 bullets. (73 gr @ 1000 fps my chrono)

They all penetrate at least 18" of cal. Ordinance gelatin.

Mr. Fackler stated that with an unobstructed frontal shot any bullet can work.

I think .45 will cause more damage with slightly less chance of over penetration and also reduced penetration of some barriers. (Which may be good or bad)

There are plenty of .45's that hold 11-15 shots.

I'm just talking about pistol bullets and fmj here per the topic.

[WillBrink]

I have had people tell me that they carry a .22 for self defense because certain agencies and units from Israel have used suppressed .22 Beretta's in the past.

Which is so dumb as to have me questioning if the person should even have a gun.

Walking up behind someone that is in a relaxed state and emptying a magazine in the back of their head does not a face to face gun fight make.

Much better is, people who do not carry with one in the pipe, and will say that's how the Israelis do it, so good enough for them. Heard that one plenty of times over the years. aka "The Israeli method."

[Ron3]

Consider;

if Mr. Yoni, who I appreciate for going on the offensive against murderous religious zealots, had a Beretta Cheetah or CZ-83 in 7.65 mm / .32 acp or 9mm Short / .380 he would have had another 4-7 extra shots to put in his attackers face / head and are even more controllable than 9x19.

My point being .32 and .380 fmj should not be disrespected as much as they are.

[Arik]

I have had people tell me that they carry a .22 for self defense because certain agencies and units from Israel have used suppressed .22 Beretta's in the past.

Which is so dumb as to have me questioning if the person should even have a gun.

Walking up behind someone that is in a relaxed state and emptying a magazine in the back of their head does not a face to face gun fight make.

Not that I disagree but I think those people are thinking of the several hostage situations where Israeli agents managed to take out the terrorists with Beretta 22s in actual gun fights. Correct me if I'm wrong but there was one agent who was famous for that

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[WillBrink]

Not that I disagree but I think those people are thinking of the several hostage situations where Israeli agents managed to take out the terrorists with Beretta 22s in actual gun fights. Correct me if I'm wrong but there was one agent who was famous for that

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He will correct as needed, but I believe the primary use of suppressed .22 Beretta's were as tools of assassination, likely done from behind, very close, and to the back of head and the terrorist, Nazi, goblin never knew what hit them.

Or, I have read one too many spy novel...

[okie]

If bullet size /weight made absolutely zero difference everyone would be carrying a .22 something and be happy with it. Lots of reasons why they don't...

I would totally carry a .22 if it would penetrate to a reliable depth in a straight line every time. Unfortunately they just don't, especially from a shorter barrel. .32 ACP is also suspect, and even .380 has its doubts. I actually wish .30 Luger had survived to become the dominant duty cartridge over 9mm. As far as I can tell it gets the job done even more efficiently.