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Thread: Hardball vs. Hardball----Does Caliber Matter?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esq. View Post
    Let's say that the latest, greatest high tech ammunition offerings cease to be available to civilians and maybe even to LEO's except in very small quantities.

    But, various hardball ammo is available although even that is scarce and expensive. Given the current situation, that's not exactly a far fetched scenario.


    Does caliber matter at that point?

    I think, personally, I'd probably load up some 200 grain, lead, .45 Semi Wadcutters- the old HG 68 bullet....in that situation. The Semi Wadcutter is a decades long proven killer of mammals of all shapes and sizes.
    The old thought was if you were not going to have JHP, make the biggest hole possible, so .45 was the choice. A more modern POV is that all handgun calibers in typical duty loads are poor man stoppers, so the reduced recoil and greater capacity favors the 9mm. That's my non expert understanding.
    Last edited by WillBrink; 03-29-21 at 10:17.
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    If that ever happened, and I hope it doesn’t, I wonder if soft point or lead loads for revolvers would still be a thing. I have been impressed with heavy .44 special lead semi wad cutters on hogs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillBrink View Post
    The old thought was if you were not going to have JHP, make the biggest hole possible, so .45 was the choice. I more modern POV is that all handgun calibers in typical duty loads are poor man stoppers, so the reduced recoil and greater capacity favors the 9mm. That's my non expert understanding.
    Yeah that sums it up well. It's also understood that 9mm FMJ and 45acp fmj really perform identically in tissue. My vote is for 9 for less recoil for faster follow up shots and better capacity so you get more chances to hit something vital

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uni-Vibe View Post
    People laugh at the 'Vibe for carrying M882 / Q4318 ball on the streets of the big city.

    Yoni knows (as do urban MEs) that it's where the bullet hits and does it penetrate.

    Q4318 is essentially +P 124 grain FMJ.

    Q4318 is cheap and reliable. Pre panic, it was $200 / case.

    Some urban thugs are huge. They look like NFL linemen. They're as big as black bears. I want to be sure of penetration.
    very well said. When it comes to what bullet does what... i always return to the old adage "it's the poor mechanic who blames his tools".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eda View Post
    Yeah that sums it up well. It's also understood that 9mm FMJ and 45acp fmj really perform identically in tissue. My vote is for 9 for less recoil for faster follow up shots and better capacity so you get more chances to hit something vital
    I recall .45 has an edge in terminal ballistics, but close enough that it would not justify using it per se when balanced off with low recoil and capacity of 9mm in FMJ or JHP. I tend to wonder if the semi wadcutter is not an under represented/under appreciated design that splits the difference and would like to see some terminal performance data. I'm sure it exists some place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillBrink View Post
    I recall .45 has an edge in terminal ballistics, but close enough that it would not justify using it per se when balanced off with low recoil and capacity of 9mm in FMJ or JHP. I tend to wonder if the semi wadcutter is not an under represented/under appreciated design that splits the difference and would like to see some terminal performance data. I'm sure it exists some place.
    I know SWC data is out there, I've seen it in the past. I wish I knew where to find it. As I recall you are correct. SWC terminal performance exceeded ball/LRN by reatively minor but statistically significant amounts. Again by memory, but I believe SWC was roughly equal to lower performance JHP. With a big jump in terminal effect where JHP expanded well.

    Like I said though, it's been a while. I also cannot say whether the information I saw is amongst any of the now discounted works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillBrink View Post
    I recall .45 has an edge in terminal ballistics, but close enough that it would not justify using it per se when balanced off with low recoil and capacity of 9mm in FMJ or JHP. I tend to wonder if the semi wadcutter is not an under represented/under appreciated design that splits the difference and would like to see some terminal performance data. I'm sure it exists some place.
    A lot of info on SWC and other hard cast design is out there from the hunting community. Buffalo Bore and Garrett Cartridges each have a few technical articles on their respective sites. There is also always the writings of Elmer Keith and such.

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    It doesn't matter period. Like I said in a previous thread, you can take virtually any autopsy report and conclude that any flavor of any common duty cartridge would be equally successful. And the inverse of that is true, as well. You can take any after action report that was unsuccessful, and any flavor of any duty cartridge would have been equally unsuccessful.

    To incapacitate someone, you have to strike the A zone, and likely multiple times. No common caliber or bullet technology is going to change that. If the bullet doesn't directly strike something major, the chances of success are next to zero.

    Where bullets fail is when they don't penetrate far enough, or they fragment or are otherwise driven off course. All the common duty calibers in all the institutionally accepted flavors have been shown to be adequate in that regard.

    So in this post apocalyptic ammo grab bag scenario, any FMJ will be fine. If we're talking about .38 or under, FMJ or lead ball would be preferred. 9mm or above and just about any HP is going to be fine. Where you would run into problems is if some jackass had a bunch of frangible or those retarded safety slugs or something. If given the choice between FMJ and an unknown HP, I would opt for the FMJ, because many if not most HPs these days have inadequate penetration, even in more powerful calibers. Since most people think 12" is acceptable, that's allowed the ammo makers to get away with extremely aggressive hollow points, and they often don't penetrate more than about 12-14 inches.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillBrink View Post
    I recall .45 has an edge in terminal ballistics, but close enough that it would not justify using it per se when balanced off with low recoil and capacity of 9mm in FMJ or JHP. I tend to wonder if the semi wadcutter is not an under represented/under appreciated design that splits the difference and would like to see some terminal performance data. I'm sure it exists some place.
    If you are missing a major blood vessel by a tenth of an inch that would have otherwise stopped the fight then that day just isnt your day.

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    On another forum Im on there is a poster named Max Prasic or something like that. He is a well known big game handgun hunter. He says in the hunting community there is a lot of information showing that SWC bullets, or other designs with a sharp leading edge, cause significantly more damage that round profile bullets.

    On the other hand, Doc Roberts has said that you start to see significant wounding outside of the bullet path with heavy hot loaded 44 mag. These hunters are usually using bullets significantly more powerful than 44 magnum. Ive heard a theory that the sharp edge not only cuts more tissue it causes more tissue disruption away from the bullet path and therefore might cause more cavitation wounding as well.
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