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Thread: Hardball vs. Hardball----Does Caliber Matter?

  1. #21
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    The full diameter top band of the SWC was always touted as being the cause of the wound diameter when hunting with hard cast bullets. In actuality, it is the meplat diameter which is the primary cause of the destruction. This is why the LBT-style of bullets prevail in big game handgun hunting

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    Wadcutters are made for punching clean, sharp holes in paper. Muscle tissue is similar to paper in that its lots of compressed bundles of fibers. While on paper, or in muscle, round nose bullets can slip between fibers and do relatively little damage, where a wide flat nose or swc cannot slip through. Because they cannot slip through, they have more drag and cut more tissue, producing visibly larger wounds

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-grunt View Post
    On another forum Im on there is a poster named Max Prasic or something like that. He is a well known big game handgun hunter. He says in the hunting community there is a lot of information showing that SWC bullets, or other designs with a sharp leading edge, cause significantly more damage that round profile bullets.

    On the other hand, Doc Roberts has said that you start to see significant wounding outside of the bullet path with heavy hot loaded 44 mag. These hunters are usually using bullets significantly more powerful than 44 magnum. Ive heard a theory that the sharp edge not only cuts more tissue it causes more tissue disruption away from the bullet path and therefore might cause more cavitation wounding as well.
    That wouldn't surprise me one bit. I think the differences would be relatively small, but at least in theory it should hold true. The important thing to keep in mind is that the energy levels are way more than the generalized threshold for cavitation. .44 mag is even on the weaker side of things when you're talking big game handgun hunters. Those are also massive bullets with lots of inertia, so they don't lose their energy easily. And we're talking energy levels on par with anything from 223 to 300 win mag, at close range, with bullets weighing around 300 grains, so it's going to turn just about anything into hamburger, regardless of what bullet you use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eda View Post
    Wadcutters are made for punching clean, sharp holes in paper. Muscle tissue is similar to paper in that its lots of compressed bundles of fibers. While on paper, or in muscle, round nose bullets can slip between fibers and do relatively little damage, where a wide flat nose or swc cannot slip through. Because they cannot slip through, they have more drag and cut more tissue, producing visibly larger wounds
    The difference though is that the fibers of muscle tissue are just about the most elastic substance on earth, suspended in water. Not saying there's zero difference, but nothing is going to cut through living muscle like it does through paper.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that bullets almost always tumble after punching through the chest wall and getting into the intersecting tissue planes inside the thoracic cavity, so anything besides a round musket ball is likely to look similar in real life.
    Last edited by okie; 03-29-21 at 19:59.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by okie View Post
    That wouldn't surprise me one bit. I think the differences would be relatively small, but at least in theory it should hold true. The important thing to keep in mind is that the energy levels are way more than the generalized threshold for cavitation. .44 mag is even on the weaker side of things when you're talking big game handgun hunters. Those are also massive bullets with lots of inertia, so they don't lose their energy easily. And we're talking energy levels on par with anything from 223 to 300 win mag, at close range, with bullets weighing around 300 grains, so it's going to turn just about anything into hamburger, regardless of what bullet you use.



    The difference though is that the fibers of muscle tissue are just about the most elastic substance on earth, suspended in water. Not saying there's zero difference, but nothing is going to cut through living muscle like it does through paper.

    Another thing to keep in mind is that bullets almost always tumble after punching through the chest wall and getting into the intersecting tissue planes inside the thoracic cavity, so anything besides a round musket ball is likely to look similar in real life.
    Energy levels are generally useless and especially when discussing big bore solid bullets. Think of these types of projectiles as long range punch presses-their purpose is drive deep straight holes.

    A .44 mag with a hard cast 300-320 gr bullet is not weak and has taken just about everything on earth.

    Hard cast rounds do not "hamburger" anything- again, because energy is largely irrelevant. It is common knowledge among those who hunt with and take game with such rounds that one can "eat right up to the hole." Meaning, no bloodshot meat

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunnerblue View Post
    Energy levels are generally useless and especially when discussing big bore solid bullets. Think of these types of projectiles as long range punch presses-their purpose is drive deep straight holes.

    A .44 mag with a hard cast 300-320 gr bullet is not weak and has taken just about everything on earth.

    Hard cast rounds do not "hamburger" anything- again, because energy is largely irrelevant. It is common knowledge among those who hunt with and take game with such rounds that one can "eat right up to the hole." Meaning, no bloodshot meat
    Energy is FAR from irrelevant. What you're saying is tantamount to arguing that a boulder won't make a bigger splash than a pebble if thrown into a lake. .44 mag will absolutely make a giant stretch cavity that's more than big enough to tear the flesh and create an appreciable permanent cavity. Might seem small by comparison if you shoot a water buffalo with it, but it will absolutely be there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by okie View Post
    Energy is FAR from irrelevant. What you're saying is tantamount to arguing that a boulder won't make a bigger splash than a pebble if thrown into a lake. .44 mag will absolutely make a giant stretch cavity that's more than big enough to tear the flesh and create an appreciable permanent cavity. Might seem small by comparison if you shoot a water buffalo with it, but it will absolutely be there.
    When dealing with handgun calibers energy is irrelevant. I've killed deer with 150gr wfn boolits from a 9mm, and I've killed deer with the same bullet but gong 400fps faster from a 357 maximum, and the damage was almost identical. There was no noticeable difference in how far they ran, and the wounds looked near identical, except the 357 maximum produced slightly (and I mean slightly) more bloodshot lung tissue. You almost couldn't tell a difference. Most handgun calibers are similar enough that the slight energy differences are moot

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    As far as quickly stopping an attacker? No, although a flat-nose, narrower, higher sectional density and faster bullet is less prone to ricochet and deviation.

    As far as killing? The same issues apply.

    If you are concerned about over-penetration FMJ in service calibers aren't a good choice unless a slower load from a very short barrel like .45 gap, .45 acp, .38 spl and .44 spl. I've chronographed a .45 Shield firing factory 230 gr FMJ at around 700 fps IIRC. That's only going to penetrate 16-20 inches in calibrated gelatin.

    For SD I carry FMJ in .25 acp, .32 acp, or semi-wadcutter in .32 Magnum. (Actually it's a SJHP I know won't expand from the snub) For civie carry I'm fine with it. I pick guns and don't worry about caliber so much.
    Last edited by Ron3; 03-30-21 at 01:08.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron3 View Post
    As far as quickly stopping an attacker? No, although a flat-nose, narrower, higher sectional density and faster bullet is less prone to ricochet and deviation.

    As far as killing? The same issues apply.

    If you are concerned about over-penetration FMJ in service calibers aren't a good choice unless a slower load from a very short barrel like .45 gap, .45 acp, .38 spl and .44 spl. I've chronographed a .45 Shield firing factory 230 gr FMJ at around 700 fps IIRC. That's only going to penetrate 16-20 inches in calibrated gelatin.

    For SD I carry FMJ in .25 acp, .32 acp, or semi-wadcutter in .32 Magnum. (Actually it's a SJHP I know won't expand from the snub) For civie carry I'm fine with it. I pick guns and don't worry about caliber so much.
    I agree. thats why the few times I carry a 32 acp I carry buffalo bore wfn loads. The 22 25 23 and even 380 are all known to occasionally deflect off bone such as the sternum or skull. That flat nose is less likely to deflect and more likely to penetrate sufficiently. And maybe it ever so slightly increases wounding

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eda View Post
    When dealing with handgun calibers energy is irrelevant. I've killed deer with 150gr wfn boolits from a 9mm, and I've killed deer with the same bullet but gong 400fps faster from a 357 maximum, and the damage was almost identical. There was no noticeable difference in how far they ran, and the wounds looked near identical, except the 357 maximum produced slightly (and I mean slightly) more bloodshot lung tissue. You almost couldn't tell a difference. Most handgun calibers are similar enough that the slight energy differences are moot
    How did we go from talking about big game handgun hunting to this?

    Not all 357 is created equal. While some loads can be 800 ft lbs, most are well under that. Still a far cry from 44 mag.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by okie View Post
    How did we go from talking about big game handgun hunting to this?

    Not all 357 is created equal. While some loads can be 800 ft lbs, most are well under that. Still a far cry from 44 mag.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I said 357 MAXIMUM. Out of a 10.5" barrel it has over 1300 ft/lbs of energy, so it is beyond any factory 44mag ammo and on par or better than hot 44mag handholds. Its a pistol caliber but its well into intermediate rifle ballistics

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